We need a new airport!!!

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KCPowercat
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by KCPowercat »

That Southwest quote was from 2013 when Southwest was trying to get a bigger voice in the process.
http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... uture.html

Since then, much more recent quotes (I just posted) have shown Southwest is on board with the costs being presented.

Hopefully we didn't miss out on cheaper money that we could have gotten 5 years prior...all for this song and dance that people like Loar are forcing this thing though.
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by herrfrank »

The VanLoh approach (which is to force the choice of the VanLoh plan) is to me almost as objectionable as the VanLoh plan itself.

Doing nothing _is_ the best option. But all sorts of canards have been dribbled into the press in order to try to shoot down that best option. (Old plumbing; "tight" radius at the horseshoe terminals; security holdups; new de-icing equipment).

The old plumbing is just plain false -- plumbing needs regular maintenance and certainly does not require demolition

Tight radius is disingenuous -- DFW has the same radius at its terminals, and planes are currently coming and going from KCI terminals B and C just fine

The security is in fact faster at KCI than at its peer airports. There is probably a slight increase in staffing levels because there are 6 manned checkpoints currently at KCI. Is this worth a new $1.2 billion expense to reduce a few TSA staffers?

The de-icing equipment problem (the latest one to dribble into the media) is probably just as incorrect as the other "issues" -- what has changed from 1990 to 2000 to today that makes the de-icing equipment suddenly inadequate at KCI?

VanLoh and his ilk are trying to jam this demolition through, and that approach rattles my china -- why is it being done in such an opaque way?
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by KCPowercat »

His approach was poor. He didn't understand how resistant KC is to change.
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by herrfrank »

As another data point...
I left my office at 1pm today with printed boarding card. Family car filthy, so took it to All Seasons car wash at 15th & Paseo, departed car wash 1:15pm. Pulled up to KC I terminal B curb at 1:38, handed off car keys to family. Through precheck at 1:45. At gate 60 at 1:47. Boarded at 2pm. Pushback for LaGuardia at 2:20.

There are precious few airports that can get you from curb to airborne in 40 minutes.
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by lock+load »

herrfrank wrote:Doing nothing _is_ the best option. But all sorts of canards have been dribbled into the press in order to try to shoot down that best option. (Old plumbing; "tight" radius at the horseshoe terminals; security holdups; new de-icing equipment).
Exactly. What we have works. Something will eventually need to be done, but some leaky pipes is no reason to tear down and start over right now.
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by flyingember »

Downtown is closer to the airport than 75% of the city in terms of time.

There's a reason people keep saying they want the airport closer. Logically there's nowhere closer to most people, but they mean "to them"
A 40 minute airport trip is hard when it takes 15 minutes just to get to the road to get you there in 45-60 minutes.
Imagine a 8am flight on a weekday starting from Blue Springs or Leawood
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by KCPowercat »

herrfrank wrote:As another data point...
I left my office at 1pm today with printed boarding card. Family car filthy, so took it to All Seasons car wash at 15th & Paseo, departed car wash 1:15pm. Pulled up to KC I terminal B curb at 1:38, handed off car keys to family. Through precheck at 1:45. At gate 60 at 1:47. Boarded at 2pm. Pushback for LaGuardia at 2:20.

There are precious few airports that can get you from curb to airborne in 40 minutes.
Wonderful. 1% of the flying public does that....maybe. Any seasoned traveler I know doesn't cut it that close.

you are right, few airports can do that....Wichita could...Omaha could....Manhattan, KS could....
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by bobbyhawks »

herrfrank wrote:As another data point...
I left my office at 1pm today with printed boarding card. Family car filthy, so took it to All Seasons car wash at 15th & Paseo, departed car wash 1:15pm. Pulled up to KC I terminal B curb at 1:38, handed off car keys to family. Through precheck at 1:45. At gate 60 at 1:47. Boarded at 2pm. Pushback for LaGuardia at 2:20.

There are precious few airports that can get you from curb to airborne in 40 minutes.
There are actually a lot of airports that work like that if you have pre-check and get dropped off by family.
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by flyingember »

KCPowercat wrote:
herrfrank wrote:As another data point...
I left my office at 1pm today with printed boarding card. Family car filthy, so took it to All Seasons car wash at 15th & Paseo, departed car wash 1:15pm. Pulled up to KC I terminal B curb at 1:38, handed off car keys to family. Through precheck at 1:45. At gate 60 at 1:47. Boarded at 2pm. Pushback for LaGuardia at 2:20.

There are precious few airports that can get you from curb to airborne in 40 minutes.
Wonderful. 1% of the flying public does that....maybe. Any seasoned traveler I know doesn't cut it that close.

you are right, few airports can do that....Wichita could...Omaha could....Manhattan, KS could....
I bet Springfield, MO and Joplin, MO is that quick too. Springfield built a new terminal in 2006-09. It was 10 year's older than KC's when they began the work.

Think about that, a 40 year old terminal in Springfield was ok to replace.
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by bobbyhawks »

Off the top of my head, I've been able to get dropped off close to my flight time in LAX, Portland, Love Field, even Midway; and that was before I had pre-check. There are very few airports where you cannot get dropped off and be at the security line in less than 5 minutes. Unless they have dropped a bunch of people in the complementary pre-check pool, the pre-check lines rarely take more than 5 minutes.

The only argument I can understand is non-pre-check people complaining about a long line at a huge airport in a major city (coincidentally where most once-a-year travelers are headed for vacation along with everyone else during peak travel times), and the truth is the problems with those lines are related to the volume those airports do. If KCI ever gets to that point, I doubt it will be because of the configuration of the airport. It will be because of the growth in flights to/through/from KC.

In a single terminal system, they will basically take the same number of lines that exist today and have the same number of scanners to process passengers but in one place and expandable, making it less likely that one entrance gets overloaded near flight time like they do today. In the most ridiculous airport in the US, you may then have a 15 minute commute to your gate. In 90% of them, you can make it to the gate in 5 minutes or less.
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by KCPowercat »

I think Bobby hit the problem square on for those infrequent travelers who think KCI is perfectly fine. The only other side they see is a huge hub during a busy time... Which new KCI is not going to become. Security will still be a breeze and even more so with the ability to handle to demand like it is incapable of doing now.

For those frequent travelers who thinks everything is fine, they are the 1% of traveler who has perfected their routine, doesn't mind if they do anything past security except wrap up a business call, and don't check bags. I'm not a fan of doing things for 1% of travelers.
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

When flights are full there are usually quite a few passengers forced to stand before boarding time even starts.
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by herrfrank »

KCPowercat wrote:Wonderful. 1% of the flying public does that....maybe. Any seasoned traveler I know doesn't cut it that close.
I travel nearly 200,000 miles per year and have for decades. Frequent flyers keep mental notes on airports, and with KCI as it is currently configured, I don't think I was cutting it that close. From experience, I know that with a boarding card already printed, KCI takes about 10 minutes maximum to walk from the curb, clear security, and arrive at the gate. That's exactly my point: it almost never takes more than 10 minutes. Airports with centralized security frequently have 30-minute backups at security, plus a slow train to the concourse, plus an unpredictable walk (could be 15 more minutes from train to far gate at ATL).

KCI is very predictable, and I can reliably budget my time accordingly. Also helps that there is rarely traffic on I-29.

Yesterday, I gave myself a 13-minute cushion before boarding began. (and there is additionally 15-minutes of wiggle room within the boarding process before the door closes). 90 minutes from downtown desk to takeoff at KCI is reliably and regularly achievable.
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by herrfrank »

KCPowercat wrote:For those frequent travelers who thinks everything is fine, they are the 1% of traveler who has perfected their routine, doesn't mind if they do anything past security except wrap up a business call, and don't check bags. I'm not a fan of doing things for 1% of travelers.
Frequent flyers, depending on definition, comprise more than 1% of the pax headcount, probably more like 20%. But in terms of a normal airline metric, namely flight coupons, frequent flyers do comprise something like 60% of the tickets issued. Are you in favor of doing something to maximize efficiency for 60% of the trips taken?
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by KCPowercat »

herrfrank wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:Wonderful. 1% of the flying public does that....maybe. Any seasoned traveler I know doesn't cut it that close.
I travel nearly 200,000 miles per year and have for decades. Frequent flyers keep mental notes on airports, and with KCI as it is currently configured, I don't think I was cutting it that close. From experience, I know that with a boarding card already printed, KCI takes about 10 minutes maximum to walk from the curb, clear security, and arrive at the gate. That's exactly my point: it almost never takes more than 10 minutes. Airports with centralized security frequently have 30-minute backups at security, plus a slow train to the concourse, plus an unpredictable walk (could be 15 more minutes from train to far gate at ATL).

KCI is very predictable, and I can reliably budget my time accordingly. Also helps that there is rarely traffic on I-29.

Yesterday, I gave myself a 13-minute cushion before boarding began. (and there is additionally 15-minutes of wiggle room within the boarding process before the door closes). 90 minutes from downtown desk to takeoff at KCI is reliably and regularly achievable.

New KCI won't have any of those things. Problem solved.
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by GRID »

bobbyhawks wrote:
herrfrank wrote:As another data point...
I left my office at 1pm today with printed boarding card. Family car filthy, so took it to All Seasons car wash at 15th & Paseo, departed car wash 1:15pm. Pulled up to KC I terminal B curb at 1:38, handed off car keys to family. Through precheck at 1:45. At gate 60 at 1:47. Boarded at 2pm. Pushback for LaGuardia at 2:20.

There are precious few airports that can get you from curb to airborne in 40 minutes.
There are actually a lot of airports that work like that if you have pre-check and get dropped off by family.
I doubt many will read all this, but just in case somebody is interested.

I would say most airports are like this. It's just the very large multi terminal hubs that you need more time for.

Way back when I first started to fly, I was brainwashed like most kansas citians that KCI is such a unique and user friendly airport. I always hated how few amenities it had and always felt the airport was extremely depressing and a place you really wanted to avoid for anything longer than 10 minutes, but it was easy and all other airports were such a pain.

But then I started to fly more and more and I started to fly with my family and I started to encounter delays and I started to fly into airports other than the giant hubs such as ATL and ORD which I had some miserable experiences at.

Several years before I left KC I had hated KCI with a passion. It was my hometown airport and I still hated it (townies are supposed to love KCI). Even when I flew alone, didn’t check bags, was dropped off etc, I had learned through many years of heavy travel and exposure to many airports that KCI is for a practical purposes a dump. It was a glorified greyhound bus stop for airplanes and it was no more user friendly than any other midsized airport and even most larger airports. It’s a terrible first and last impression of a city that is supposed to be on the up.

Now I use BWI (sometimes DCA, very rarely IAD) as my home airport. I’m sure the first time I flew into BWI or DCA when I lived in KC, I was overwhelmed and intimidated to some degree as they are much larger and busier places. Lines appeared more scary and longer, gates seems further away. BWI has over three times the traffic of KCI, so I’m not even sure it should be compared to KCI. KCI is more in line with Indy, Austin, Nashville, Cincy etc as far as traffic. But just after a few times of using BWI and getting to know the airport, it quickly became EASIER AND FASTER to use than KCI. Not to mention it’s about 1000 times nicer and in a different universe as far as amenities go and BWI doesn’t even have that many shops or dining options compared to most large airports.

The following is only about Southwest which is all I fly, they hav a huge presence at BWI, probably 5 times that of KCI. The Southwest gates alone dwarf all of KCI activity.

At BWI, if you get dropped off, have no baggage to check and have pre-check, there is almost no difference. None.

If you are parking in long term parking, it’s faster because buses are more frequent and departing and arriving passengers are not on the same buses and BWI used full size buses so they are easier to get luggage on an off.

If you are parking in short term parking, it’s across the street in the massive garage which always has spaces available.

You “might” have to walk further if your flight leaves from a further away gate. Add a whole 5 minutes if this is the case. Most gates at BWI are within 3 minutes of TSA. Many are just as close as they are at KCI. And BWI doesn’t have the terribly marked hamster tunnels that KCI has now in Southwest which often make you walk a lot further at KCI than people will admit. Personally, even when I get dropped off or when I park in long term and fly alone, I like to get through security and then go to the restroom, grab a meal if I haven’t had one yet, get a drink etc. So I like to get there about 15-20 minutes before they start boarding, although when I’m rushing, I can do what you can do at KCI and be dropped off 30 minutes before my flight leaves and be fine, I have done it many times, but I prefer not to. At KCI you really have to do that as KCI is just not a place you want to be, even for a short time and you have to make sure you have used the restroom etc. If you didn’t have time to eat or drink you are pretty much screwed at KCI. You could go to Burger King and hope you can get through TSA and to your gate on time, but you would need to plan more time to do that and hope a line doesn’t come out of nowhere while you are sitting in the rafters eating burger king.

When I land at BWI, depending on where your gate is, it’s about a 2-5 minute walk to the curb. It’s really no big deal at all. You will pass through the huge baggage area where they actually have carousels large enough that an entire flight can stand around it and you are not in the middle of a concourse. The baggage carousels are actually marked with digital signs so you know which one to retrieve your baggage from.

BWI gets busy like KCI does. Early mornings are busy. So they open more TSA lines. At KCI, you are stuck with the lanes they have. If two or more flights depart from the same gate area, the TSA lines at KCI can really bog down. I have nearly missed flights at KCI on Monday mornings more than once. If you do have precheck at KCI, you won’t know how to use it because everything is so poorly laid out. You basically just have to go to TSA people and ask.

So BWI is the same or better when flying under relatively rare and perfect conditions. Being dropped off, no checked bags etc, pre TSA etc.

BWI is much better if you are flying under more normal conditions, with baggage, parking a car, with a family etc and it’s a million times better if you have to wait out a delay or need to get to the airport early. Trust me, if you are flying a family with baggage, you need to get there early, get your bags checked and get through security and allow yourself plenty of time to do that. BWI is far more comfortable. BWI actually takes your bags when you check them. At KCI you drag them back through the line and throw them in a pile in the un secure concourse. Once through security, you have plenty of places to eat, wait, sit, go to the restroom, walk around, charge your phone, get a drink etc. At KCI, you are in crowded cattle pens with nothing but tiny filthy makeshift bathroom stalls, a few vending machines and if you are lucky a starbucks that would have to rank at the bottom of their chain in quality, but since everybody is there in line, you likely will just not even try. All you can do is wait it out and hope it’s not crowed because you can’t get to all the empty gates on the other size of the wall if there are no empty seats. This is when it’s just normal flights. KCI with delays is brutal, worse than any other airport period.

Using KCI as a visitor:

This is where things go from bad to worse. Think about it from a non-local perspective. Forget about making a connection. I think everybody under the sun knows better than to make a connection at KCI, even within the same airline. It’s a ridiculous experience and anybody that’s done one at KCI won’t make that mistake again and Southwest knows this.

But let’s say you land and plan to rent a car. (FYI, because there is no central concourse, there is no taxi stand and no signs that guide you to taxi or ground transit that make any sense), you have to hunt down a phone and call one and hope it picks you and not another passenger it sees first. So back to finding a rental car. You walk off jetway and unlike every other airport in the world, you have no idea where to go. You are just in the middle of a gate holding area. If you are connecting, you will likely follow everybody else right out of the secure area even if you didn’t want to leave that area. If KCI is your destination, you will be amazed at the lack of signage and where to go. Baggage? Ground Transportation? It’s not well marked. Baggage could be either direction. So you eventually find your baggage carousel which is not marked, you have to ask somebody where your flight comes out at, it’s small, it’s literally in the middle of concourse where the narrow hallway filled with departing and arriving passengers. You get your bags and then start looking for rental cars. Again, almost no signs. You finally figure out that you have to go catch a bus. You walk outside. WTF, the airport run rental care buses are not even curbside??? You have to drag your luggage across three lanes of traffic to a very mall median in the middle of a six lane road and wait for a bus. The bus comes. Just like the parking buses, it picks up and drops off passengers rather than just taking arriving passenger straight to the RCF. Your bags are moved several times as people come and go from the bus. It’s later at night, the buses are full and they are serving all terminals. It takes forever. You finally arrive at the RCF and WOW, the first time you have seen a modern building since arriving in KC. You get excited to be in this new structure! Till you realize that all the cars are in surface lots and it’s raining….What is the point of an offsite consolidated rental car facility if you are not going to even have a covered garage to store the cars?

I can go on and on with stories I have seen watching people use KCI. People hate it, they make fun of it, they get frustrated with it. It’s not user friendly, it’s not really any faster, it’s certainly not nicer and we all know it has nothing other than gates with walls around them.

I don’t use KCI much anymore, but every time I fly out of KCI, it’s a depressing feeling to set foot in KCI and it’s even more depressing seeing others using it and wishing they were in any other airport than KCI. Meanwhile all the locals are running around in the concourses dressed like they are going to a KU or Kstate game (had to get that in there) thinking they have the best airport in the world!

Build a new terminal already. It's way overdue. You know things are bad when you fly into Grand Rapids or OKC and think those terminals are so much nicer. If Topeka had a commercial airport, I think it would be nicer than KCI. Okay I’m done :)
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by longviewmo »

I didn't realize we were building a massive hub airport and not incorporating any lessons learned in airport efficiency design from the last 50 years. No wonder why people think it'll be a boondoggle!
Last edited by longviewmo on Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by flyingember »

The last few times I flew

New Orleans. Transferred in St Louis back, midway going
Boston. Transferred in o'hare
Chicago
Charlotte. transferred in midway

New Orleans was decent. Worst part was getting to the terminal and we picked peak time with an infant.

Boston was years ago. Got a call at midnight saying our ticket was moved to an earlier flight. Slowdown was rental car drop off, the airport was a breeze to get through

Chicago we flew on a holiday weekend. Security was backed up halfway at 7am. We took the train to the airport and the walk was ok with long moving walkways. Didn't check anything

Charlotte we had a stupid early flight, got there at 6am. No line. Ate breakfast at Charlotte, lunch at Midway.

The flight transfer in ohare involved the underground passage and ways really easy

My point is my experiences tend to be based around the time of day and when the traveling is happening more than the airport layout. I've stood in line at KCI and gone straight to the front.



edit: fix one Chicago airport name
Last edited by flyingember on Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by Highlander »

herrfrank wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:Wonderful. 1% of the flying public does that....maybe. Any seasoned traveler I know doesn't cut it that close.
I travel nearly 200,000 miles per year and have for decades. Frequent flyers keep mental notes on airports, and with KCI as it is currently configured, I don't think I was cutting it that close. From experience, I know that with a boarding card already printed, KCI takes about 10 minutes maximum to walk from the curb, clear security, and arrive at the gate. That's exactly my point: it almost never takes more than 10 minutes. Airports with centralized security frequently have 30-minute backups at security, plus a slow train to the concourse, plus an unpredictable walk (could be 15 more minutes from train to far gate at ATL).

KCI is very predictable, and I can reliably budget my time accordingly. Also helps that there is rarely traffic on I-29.

Yesterday, I gave myself a 13-minute cushion before boarding began. (and there is additionally 15-minutes of wiggle room within the boarding process before the door closes). 90 minutes from downtown desk to takeoff at KCI is reliably and regularly achievable.
The problem with this approach is the contradiction. If everybody flew with the same habits as you do, you would never be able to do this at KCI. Especially KCI, security would be swamped by late arrivals on a routine basis. Getting to the airport at the last minute with no issues is only possible because the vast majority of air travelers get to the airport well in advance of their flights and at KCI, the passengers moving through your gate have generally long passed through security by the time you have arrived. At other airports, you do not have that advantage because of centralized security and you would never be able to do it at KCI if other fliers were of the same mindset about cutting their arrivals so close. I don't fly as much as you do - but pretty close to as much - and I prefer to get to the airport well in advance of my flight - especially if it's international which most my business flights are. Just too much invested in the flight to take any chance of missing it. Different philosophies, different needs.
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Post by mean »

Can we at least wait until Bernie Sanders is president and beg for some of that sweet socialist infrastructure nectar?
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