Thinking outside the box on transit financing

[DaveKCMO]

Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill will enable cities to sell off roads and airports to fund new infrastructure projects.

Imagine selling KCI for $4 billion to build light rail exclusively within the city limits.

Now there's an idea!

[Riverite]

That would be amazing, how far would that get us if day we had to build it to the airport as part of a contractural obligation with the buyer

[normalthings]

That would be amazing, how far would that get us if day we had to build it to the airport as part of a contractual obligation with the buyer

I always heard airport rail advertised as $2 billion but no one really knows. I doubt an airport buyer would care about getting LRT service.

Privatized airports are common in the rest of the world. This could be an easy way for us to fund a capital-intensive transit program with no or minimal tax increases.

Dave, how dense does a TDD need to be to cover operations only? I would imagine Independence Blvd, North Oak, and Linwood to the stadiums are all dense enough to cover operations.




https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... -tnEcuNiOC

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 6PjrrxL31_

What happened when Australia started "asset recycling."

The result was a $17 billion infrastructure boom, with both the private sector and states kicking in billions of dollars to purchase the assets and rehab them. It set off a construction boom in Sydney and Melbourne. Local governments used the funds to expand overburdened transportation corridors and build new mass transit, among other priorities. The original toll roads, meanwhile, saw safety improve, congestion decrease and toll rates fall thanks to private sector investment.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/s ... cna1270197

[flyingember]

That would be amazing, how far would that get us if day we had to build it to the airport as part of a contractual obligation with the buyer

I always heard airport rail advertised as $2 billion but no one really knows. I doubt an airport buyer would care about getting LRT service.

16 miles from the NKC city limits at 32nd

Streetcar expansion to UMKC is $91 million per mile

5% inflation per year, assuming a 2030 construction
$2.2 billion seems like the lowest possible price.

If likely depends on if it’s a direct express route or a via Gladstone route.

[DaveKCMO]

Dave, how dense does a TDD need to be to cover operations only? I would imagine Independence Blvd, North Oak, and Linwood to the stadiums are all dense enough to cover operations.

It's difficult to estimate since KCMO doesn't provide granular tracking of retail sales, assuming you went with just a sales tax. If you're not covering capital costs, I'm sure you could draw a district big enough to cover operations.

Independence and Linwood were not looked at as standalone operations within the value capture context, but it was suggested that they would not stand on their own without the Main Street extension. Somewhere there's a detailed pro-forma that probably answers that question, but I don't have it.

The stadiums are one of the last major sales tax generators in KCMO that isn't already in a streetcar TDD. The other majors being Westport and Plaza. I assume KCI is the only one in the Northland since the other retail is spread out. That may not matter if you decided to do a very large TDD.

There was a strange requirement attached to TDD Act modifications that would need to be revisited if you wanted to do an operations-only TDD in Kansas City.

[normalthings]

Dave, how dense does a TDD need to be to cover operations only? I would imagine Independence Blvd, North Oak, and Linwood to the stadiums are all dense enough to cover operations.

It's difficult to estimate since KCMO doesn't provide granular tracking of retail sales, assuming you went with just a sales tax. If you're not covering capital costs, I'm sure you could draw a district big enough to cover operations.

Independence and Linwood were not looked at as standalone operations within the value capture context, but it was suggested that they would not stand on their own without the Main Street extension. Somewhere there's a detailed pro-forma that probably answers that question, but I don't have it.

The stadiums are one of the last major sales tax generators in KCMO that isn't already in a streetcar TDD. The other majors being Westport and Plaza. I assume KCI is the only one in the Northland since the other retail is spread out. That may not matter if you decided to do a very large TDD.

There was a strange requirement attached to TDD Act modifications that would need to be revisited if you wanted to do an operations-only TDD in Kansas City.

Plaza & Westport being in the extended Main Street TDD though?

[DaveKCMO]

Yes.

[flyingember]

The stadiums are one of the last major sales tax generators in KCMO that isn't already in a streetcar TDD. The other majors being Westport and Plaza. I assume KCI is the only one in the Northland since the other retail is spread out. That may not matter if you decided to do a very large TDD.

The Truman Sports Complex generates $27-31 million in total taxes
http://www.emporiagazette.com/free/arti ... 798a4.html

http://football.ballparks.com/NFL/Kansa ... windex.htm
This quotes $30 million for both.


To put that in comparison

The average US Walmart does $76.7 million in sales. So it takes 40 Walmarts to equal the sports complex.

Zona Rosa, when they were basically bankrupt, collected $1.75 million in taxes. So it would take 17x major shopping developments to equal it.


The total net sales taxes of the entire northland is likely many times over the sports complex, but it does show just how much value is in it.

[Riverite]

Being able to reach all of the neighborhoods on the way to the stadium could be game changing for them especially if they ran it down 31st as a streetcar

[flyingember]

Being able to reach all of the neighborhoods on the way to the stadium could be game changing for them especially if they ran it down 31st as a streetcar

How would it be game changing? They have a bus line today. If there was a huge demand for transit the bus service would be packed and there would be demand for more busses/more frequency.

[alejandro46]

That would be amazing, how far would that get us if day we had to build it to the airport as part of a contractual obligation with the buyer

I always heard airport rail advertised as $2 billion but no one really knows. I doubt an airport buyer would care about getting LRT service.

16 miles from the NKC city limits at 32nd

Streetcar expansion to UMKC is $91 million per mile

5% inflation per year, assuming a 2030 construction
$2.2 billion seems like the lowest possible price.

If likely depends on if it’s a direct express route or a via Gladstone route.

If anything an airport buyer may be against LRT that would decrease parking revenue, but generally I think it would be seen as a positive.

Here is a quick napkin math I did for another thread to compare some sample costs for potential expansion routes based upon Main Street 1, 2, and Troost BRT.


Main should total $4.1bln. Please disregard typos.

[normalthings]

I always heard airport rail advertised as $2 billion but no one really knows. I doubt an airport buyer would care about getting LRT service.

16 miles from the NKC city limits at 32nd

Streetcar expansion to UMKC is $91 million per mile

5% inflation per year, assuming a 2030 construction
$2.2 billion seems like the lowest possible price.

If likely depends on if it’s a direct express route or a via Gladstone route.

If anything an airport buyer may be against LRT that would decrease parking revenue, but generally I think it would be seen as a positive.

Here is a quick napkin math I did for another thread to compare some sample costs for potential expansion routes based upon Main Street 1, 2, and Troost BRT.


Main should total $4.1bln. Please disregard typos.

Correct. Parking, TNC, & Rental Cars are profit centers. An airport operator or owner (private or public) doesn’t have much of an incentive to support a LRT line. In this case, that works in our favor considering the limited ridership one would incur anyways

[alejandro46]

Correct. Parking, TNC, & Rental Cars are profit centers. An airport operator or owner (private or public) doesn’t have much of an incentive to support a LRT line. In this case, that works in our favor considering the limited ridership one would incur anyways
[/quote]

Agreed, I see a Northern rail line more importantly connecting Zona Rosa & Metro North Crossing both for their large parking areas for park and ride. They would probably want to somehow monetize parking or not allow overnight parking to make sure people don't just park there and ride to the airport as well as start charging some fares. Still just hypothetical and a long way off. Got to figure out how to pay for a bridge crossing first- hence I think TSC should be the next expansion after Berkley & Plaza.

[alejandro46]

Also Relevent:

Why does it cost so much to build things in America?

https://www.vox.com/22534714/rail-roads ... ts-america

Basically - expensive labor, but not outrageously so. More a due to intense regulatory, environmental, and political processes and red tape.

For KCMO, we have the KCATA and KC Streetcar authority that have been making some progress in the past 10+ years or so. We just need more regional buy in and funding for higher-frequency services around the metro area through an increased four-county bi-state transit tax.

[shinatoo]

16 miles from the NKC city limits at 32nd

Streetcar expansion to UMKC is $91 million per mile

5% inflation per year, assuming a 2030 construction
$2.2 billion seems like the lowest possible price.

If likely depends on if it’s a direct express route or a via Gladstone route.

If anything an airport buyer may be against LRT that would decrease parking revenue, but generally I think it would be seen as a positive.

Here is a quick napkin math I did for another thread to compare some sample costs for potential expansion routes based upon Main Street 1, 2, and Troost BRT.


Main should total $4.1bln. Please disregard typos.

Correct. Parking, TNC, & Rental Cars are profit centers. An airport operator or owner (private or public) doesn’t have much of an incentive to support a LRT line. In this case, that works in our favor considering the limited ridership one would incur anyways

Wouldn't you get the same pushback from the Chiefs over parking? I mean the Royals used to ban chaining up your bike anywhere in the lot, and then they started charging $10 for bike riders.

[normalthings]

Main should total $4.1bln. Please disregard typos.

Correct. Parking, TNC, & Rental Cars are profit centers. An airport operator or owner (private or public) doesn’t have much of an incentive to support a LRT line. In this case, that works in our favor considering the limited ridership one would incur anyways

Wouldn't you get the same pushback from the Chiefs over parking? I mean the Royals used to ban chaining up your bike anywhere in the lot, and then they started charging $10 for bike riders.
[/quote]

The Chiefs seemed onboard with the 2012 rail proposal. The Chiefs also wouldn't be paying for the whole project like a potential new airport owner.

[alejandro46]

Main should total $4.1bln. Please disregard typos.

Correct. Parking, TNC, & Rental Cars are profit centers. An airport operator or owner (private or public) doesn’t have much of an incentive to support a LRT line. In this case, that works in our favor considering the limited ridership one would incur anyways

Wouldn't you get the same pushback from the Chiefs over parking? I mean the Royals used to ban chaining up your bike anywhere in the lot, and then they started charging $10 for bike riders.

The Chiefs seemed onboard with the 2012 rail proposal. The Chiefs also wouldn't be paying for the whole project like a potential new airport owner.
[/quote]

Yep, I honestly have no idea how they would feel about it. I think it would be an interesting concept especially if they could develop a bar and event area on some of their surplus real estate out there. If I had to guess, I would say that the crowd that would drive wouldn't overlap with the transit crowd as much as those who would Uber. If you are gonna tailgate, you probably want to drive anyways. TSC would also be a midway point to further Rock Island RR expansion.

[DaveKCMO]

Also Relevent:

Why does it cost so much to build things in America?

https://www.vox.com/22534714/rail-roads ... ts-america

Basically - expensive labor, but not outrageously so. More a due to intense regulatory, environmental, and political processes and red tape.

For KCMO, we have the KCATA and KC Streetcar authority that have been making some progress in the past 10+ years or so. We just need more regional buy in and funding for higher-frequency services around the metro area through an increased four-county bi-state transit tax.

You don't have that problem with basic bus service, even if it's frequent and laden with amenities that are built up over time rather than "designed" and built all at once.