rxlexi wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:17 pm
The discussion around the correlation between airport size/number of flights and metro area growth/economic impact is interesting to me. Curious what KC would look like today if MCI had been properly developed initially as a mid-continent hub for TWA as planned. Obviously that ship has sailed (or plane has taken off, as it were), but I'm intrigued by those kinds of historical chicken and egg scenarios in places like Dallas, MSP, and especially Denver.
Was high-growth (whether economic, population, or both) the driver of the sizable hub airports, or did the airports play a key role in sparking/sustaining that growth? With regards to Denver - the city was a medium size energy boom/bust town with a heavy dose of skiing related tourism into the 90's, when they really shifted into high-gear with the downtown redevelopment, light-rail plans, and DIA. Now a bustling tech hub, very-high growth in the most desirable demographic cohorts, and airport infrastructure that has grown from "way out in the middle of nowhere" to the type of LRT connected mid-con hub that perhaps MCI was to have been.
Probably safe to say regional growth rates and larger economic trends are the true impact players here, as proven by rust belt cities that have sustained large hubs for periods of time, only to lose them as they continue to stagnate. But it's not hard to imagine how much of a benefit the quality of and number of flights from a large airport must be to a regional business community, whether considering moving to or growing within a region.
TWA was the 2nd biggest US airline by the mid-60s. The mega-hubs at DFW and ATL were what TWA once had planned for KC and are what KCI would have turned into in an alternate timeline.
KC was growing and had a hub. KC needed a hub to support continued growth on par with peers like Dallas and Atlanta. KC also almost built a subway system around that time but the efforts failed just short of the finish line. I believe those 2 events are what separate us from being a Denver if not an Atlanta.
KC needs to be at the forefront of the infrastructure of the 21st and 22nd Centuries. Data centers we have a shot at but are behind rural areas and some metros (DC). Self-driving and automation tech has clustered around universities that we do not have.
Eastern Airlines taking up Jet Midwest hangar, unfortunately no commercial flights for KCI as focus is on cargo...
Hoping to spark a fundamental change in the way goods are moved around the world, Eastern Airlines placed a huge bet on turning passenger planes into cargo haulers, choosing Kansas City as the location to get it done.
The effort could result in 140 new jobs at a facility near Kansas City International Airport.
Harfst said he chose Kansas City as the location because the Jet Midwest hangar is a perfect facility for what Eastern is trying to accomplish. He also was attracted to the amount of skilled aviation talent in the area. The central location didn’t really play a role because the company has no intent right now to fly commercially out of Kansas City, he said.
earthling wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:44 pm
Eastern Airlines taking up Jet Midwest hangar, unfortunately no commercial flights for KCI as focus is on cargo...
Hoping to spark a fundamental change in the way goods are moved around the world, Eastern Airlines placed a huge bet on turning passenger planes into cargo haulers, choosing Kansas City as the location to get it done.
The effort could result in 140 new jobs at a facility near Kansas City International Airport.
Harfst said he chose Kansas City as the location because the Jet Midwest hangar is a perfect facility for what Eastern is trying to accomplish. He also was attracted to the amount of skilled aviation talent in the area. The central location didn’t really play a role because the company has no intent right now to fly commercially out of Kansas City, he said.
Basically just using the overhaul base to convert jets. No cargo service planned. Jet Midwest has always been on the verge of bankruptcy so its good to hear they could get a big lease but I wouldn't be surprised if it was very cheap space.
ATS is the tenant at KCI who works with the big airlines (AC, Delta, etc) to do maintenance. Jet Midwest is the one with all the junkers.
GRID wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:48 pm
That's the main reason I still dislike the place, even if the economic bistate war is over. (which is shouldn't be, it's only over because KS saw they were going to start losing that war). I personally would have liked to see KCMO win some companies back first.
GRID wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:48 pm
That's the main reason I still dislike the place, even if the economic bistate war is over. (which is shouldn't be, it's only over because KS saw they were going to start losing that war). I personally would have liked to see KCMO win some companies back first.
Would be nice but it was the nature of broader circumstances to begin with. Such as Jeff City more focused on STL and Topeka on KS side of metro. Also need to blame the local companies that exploited state giveaways and did some of their own enticing.
Looking at it as a detached observer not originally from KC (though based in KCMO entire adult life with no interest in suburban living), it would have been more bizarre if KS side didn't build up their own economic center and settled as a bedroom community. Easier to realize when detaching the emotions from witnessing the shift. Agree that now that KCMO getting some mojo back, KS side might have no choice but to play along - have alluded to that before. At least where it's mutually beneficial. Those opportunities should be sought, not feed downward spiral of 'enemies'.
earthling wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:11 am
^Was kidding about JoCo comments. Note &&. Has meant ironic/sarcasm here for years. And there's no denial of the impact of JoCo on KCMO but not as malevolent as you often imply. It's far more complicated than simplistic fingerpointing. For starters, when Jeff City is more focused on STL and Topeka on KS side of metro, things will shift that way, would be more surprising if not.
Back to airport.. New airport will help but airlines were focusing on more flights to key hubs and fewer nonstop for outliers before COVID. New KCI might draw a few more flights and grab some SWA from STL but KC may need to control its own destiny in long run and get a homegrown airline back like Vangard when the timing is right.
Before Love Field was opened up as SWA main hub/home airport KC really benefitted as a mini-hub along with Midway here in the Midwest. Change to STL I think just had to do with capacity such as passenger waiting areas, gates, etc. Not 100% sure. However once new airport comes online it should bring back some SWA flight and maybe even allow for existing companies to come into the market. I'm excited for it and what it will mean for the future. With KC being right in the middle of the country lends it self well for transportation & telecommunications.
earthling wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:11 am
^Was kidding about JoCo comments. Note &&. Has meant ironic/sarcasm here for years. And there's no denial of the impact of JoCo on KCMO but not as malevolent as you often imply. It's far more complicated than simplistic fingerpointing. For starters, when Jeff City is more focused on STL and Topeka on KS side of metro, things will shift that way, would be more surprising if not.
Back to airport.. New airport will help but airlines were focusing on more flights to key hubs and fewer nonstop for outliers before COVID. New KCI might draw a few more flights and grab some SWA from STL but KC may need to control its own destiny in long run and get a homegrown airline back like Vangard when the timing is right.
Before Love Field was opened up as SWA main hub/home airport KC really benefitted as a mini-hub along with Midway here in the Midwest. Change to STL I think just had to do with capacity such as passenger waiting areas, gates, etc. Not 100% sure. However once new airport comes online it should bring back some SWA flight and maybe even allow for existing companies to come into the market. I'm excited for it and what it will mean for the future. With KC being right in the middle of the country lends it self well for transportation & telecommunications.
STL is about to 20 Southwest gates with room for many more to easily be added. I don't think KC is building on that level but we will at least be able to support some connecting traffic as needed.
Hopefully there won't be any long term snafus that would turn off airlines for hub activity (Denver had a major baggage handling problem when first opened). I do think KC eventually needs a homegrown airline a la Vanguard though to control its own destiny. The commercial airlines are fickle and tech allows them to shuffle around secondary hubs however they want with no commitment to any city.
earthling wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:25 pm
^Yeah, Denver eventually capitalized on the mountain life and invested hugely in new airport at just the right time. If KC did things right as Union Station rail passenger traffic declined and had Howard Hughes attention, KC could've maintained a high profile with a major air hub that may have made it difficult for DEN/MSP/STL to build up as much air traffic, possibly. Can't say for sure but it was a big missed opportunity for KC.
The criteria for a hub during that era were 1) large population and/or 2) large number of flights related to tourism. The airlines wanted to guarantee that flights would be full and both 1 and 2 helped out when there was not enough activity from the spokes to fill the flights at the hub.
At the time, Denver wasn't that much larger than KC but it had a large volume of flights coming into the city related to tourism in both summer and winter (particularly skiing). The tourism angle helped Las Vegas and SLC establish themselves as hubs as well. KC had neither nor did it have a large business HQ establishment like St Louis or Dallas. The combination of these things and an airport that did not meet the standards of a hub really worked against KC more so than the central location would have ever worked for it. Some carriers did try to take advantage of the lack of competition in KC but all failed for a combination of reasons (most weren't on great financial footing to begin with).
If I recall, Vegas was the main connecting airport for many of the mid-tier cities for the West coast, San Jose, Sacramento, Tucson, Eugene (OR), etc. Also it was the spot you went if you did not have a non-stop to the major West Coast cities from bigger cities in the Midwest KC, STL, CHI, MIN, etc. Some of that traffic from KC goes to Dallas now but Vegas was the big spot just because of the volume of flights per day there as a major tourism & business leisure spot (conventions, etc)
Does anybody know how they will configure the economy parking with the new terminal? The parking lots will no longer be associated with a specific terminal.
I'm guessing they will combine A lot with C lot (since they are already next to each other) and just have lots A and B and you just catch the bus for the lot you parked in. Same way they do it at BWI here.
I think the long-term plan was still 5o move economy closer by the rental car place and maybe connected by a peoplemover.
They did just repave C economy lot and A has been used for C 0arking. I assume they will just use C for economy after opening given that as there will be so much more garage parking
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:36 pm
I think the long-term plan was still 5o move economy closer by the rental car place and maybe connected by a peoplemover.
They did just repave C economy lot and A has been used for C 0arking. I assume they will just use C for economy after opening given that as there will be so much more garage parking
I always thought the people mover would just go to the existing lots. Where would they move the lots closer? There is no place closer for massive surface parking lots. They could do a lot about half the size of the current economy lots south of the rental car facility I guess. Seems like that would be a better spot for the employee lot which is really far away.
Also, are you sure the new garage will be that much larger than three garages and all the other weird parking between them etc? I really have no idea. It might be.
I also always thought the economy buses were too small. Full size buses seem to work better for airport parking shuttles. But maybe they run them more frequent or something now.
Last edited by GRID on Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
