Hyperloop between KC and STL

Transportation topics in KC
flyingember
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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by flyingember » Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:33 pm

Ok, I'll go bigger

With Amazon I've had deliveries scheduled and then show up two days early. I presume because the logistics made more sense to do it that way.

Imagine you and your neighbor both ordered at 8am unknowingly and you both have prime service. Your items is in stock in KC, theirs is in St. Louis. That is a reasonable overnight truck transfer. But their software knows every delivery in your area and where those items are, the costs to move them around from different warehouses by different methods, the cost to deliver per item and per route and all that data. I recently had three open orders at once. They consolidated it into three deliveries where items from two orders came at the same time in one case. One delivery came two days early delivered by Amazon staff, another came by UPS from Ohio or Tennessee.

All a system like hyperloop does is add another variable to the problem. It doesn't have to be cheaper to use a tube over an airplane, it just has to provide value by allowing more flexibility of scheduling deliveries. If they can ship 2000 items in an hour from St. Louis for same day delivery in KC because there's already a same day delivery to the neighbors of whoever bought those 2000 items it could be more profitable overall by adding costs to long-distance transport and reducing costs on final delivery.

It really doesn't matter what the item is at that point.

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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by dnweava » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:08 pm

Hyperloop freight will be competing with air freight, not trains.

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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by mean » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:16 pm

For the record, my questioning of the tech's feasibility was was not in economic terms, it was in purely technical terms. Like, when an airplane depressurizes, they have oxygen masks and they can decrease altitude. Once in a while someone gets sucked out, but it's usually not a complete disaster / hull loss event.

It doesn't take a very vivid imagination or a degree in physics to picture what happens when a vactrain tube repressurizes and that wall of air rushes in and meets a train traveling at a rate of speed not designed to occur in atmo. I haven't done the math, but surely there's no hope of anyone or anything surviving that or even being recognizable.

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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by flyingember » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:47 pm

dnweava wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:08 pm
Hyperloop freight will be competing with air freight, not trains.
It would compete with airplanes and trucking freight in terms of frequency, but it would act more like a train in terms of having designated stops and schedules

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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by shinatoo » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:28 am

The proposed appeal of freight on Hyperloop is the cost per mile is less than trucks or trains, it's not about speed. We will see if that proves out. If it's just less than trucks it would be a huge benefit to the environment and to I-70.
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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by missingkc » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:20 am

It might be great for KC<->SL only freight. For stuff going further in either direction, you'd have to factor in transfer events (even if at shipping container size) at each end to get goods on/off the loop and on/off connecting modes of transport. Time, infrastructure, money.

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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by DaveKCMO » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:41 am

The only way this competes on price is with a massive public subsidy for construction or land acquisition. If MoDOT gives them the I-70 right of way -- something which has NOT been committed -- that's a start, but you need terminals and it's not clear if those terminals will also be completely contained within public ROW. Again, any proposal for public contribution will get major scrutiny from rural interests if the only stops are STL, Columbia, and KC.

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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by shinatoo » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:34 pm

If it works I doubt they are planning on stopping at KC and St. Louis. This is supposed to be a starter line.
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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by DaveKCMO » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:11 pm

shinatoo wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:34 pm
If it works I doubt they are planning on stopping at KC and St. Louis. This is supposed to be a starter line.
?

They literally have only mentioned KC, Columbia, and STL. A KC terminus at the riverfront has even been mentioned.

https://www.engadget.com/2018/10/17/hyp ... ly-viable/

The true "starter line" is in Abu Dhabi: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/18/hyperlo ... -2020.html

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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by shinatoo » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:38 am

Why on earth would they stop in Missouri? If this thing works like they hope it will they will start building out to Dallas and Chicago so that they are connected to communities with real populations numbers and real freight needs. The rest of the country from there. If they want to monitize this thing it has to be national or at least regional.

They picked Missouri for several reasons, the main one being low PR risk, build it out in the "sticks", if it doesn't work at least it's not running from Dallas to Houston, or Chicago to Detroit, for everyone to see every day. Secondarily they have a willing participant in MoDot. And lastly, it's a strategic location that they can build out from to connect serious segments of the country. Much like the interstate system.

Abu Dhabi is the only starter line? Doesn't really help start much of anything in North America. I would say Abu Dhabi is the true public test line for a proof of concept. If it works, then I bet we see work in Missouri shortly thereafter.
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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by normalthings » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:06 pm

shinatoo wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:38 am
Why on earth would they stop in Missouri? If this thing works like they hope it will they will start building out to Dallas and Chicago so that they are connected to communities with real populations numbers and real freight needs. The rest of the country from there. If they want to monitize this thing it has to be national or at least regional.

They picked Missouri for several reasons, the main one being low PR risk, build it out in the "sticks", if it doesn't work at least it's not running from Dallas to Houston, or Chicago to Detroit, for everyone to see every day. Secondarily they have a willing participant in MoDot. And lastly, it's a strategic location that they can build out from to connect serious segments of the country. Much like the interstate system.

Abu Dhabi is the only starter line? Doesn't really help start much of anything in North America. I would say Abu Dhabi is the true public test line for a proof of concept. If it works, then I bet we see work in Missouri shortly thereafter.
They picked Missouri because we are gullible enough to support it and had 2 mid sized cities.

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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by missingkc » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:39 pm

I would think it's at least partly because of the obvious need for serious reworking of I-70 and MoDOT's interest.

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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by shinatoo » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:05 pm

normalthings wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:06 pm
shinatoo wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:38 am
Why on earth would they stop in Missouri? If this thing works like they hope it will they will start building out to Dallas and Chicago so that they are connected to communities with real populations numbers and real freight needs. The rest of the country from there. If they want to monitize this thing it has to be national or at least regional.

They picked Missouri for several reasons, the main one being low PR risk, build it out in the "sticks", if it doesn't work at least it's not running from Dallas to Houston, or Chicago to Detroit, for everyone to see every day. Secondarily they have a willing participant in MoDot. And lastly, it's a strategic location that they can build out from to connect serious segments of the country. Much like the interstate system.

Abu Dhabi is the only starter line? Doesn't really help start much of anything in North America. I would say Abu Dhabi is the true public test line for a proof of concept. If it works, then I bet we see work in Missouri shortly thereafter.
They picked Missouri because we are gullible enough to support it and had 2 mid sized cities.
What are they getting out of it if they know it doesn't work? Not seeing motive here.
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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by FangKC » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:03 pm

It they wanted to monetize it from the get-go on a starter line, wouldn't they have run it from New York City to Washington DC?

It's a similar distance as St. Louis to Kansas City -- around 240 miles, and also about the same driving time. However, there are a lot more people traveling between NYC and DC by plane, train, and highway. More business. I would also assume a lot more package shipping that would need to be done quickly.

Does it just come down to the cost of acquiring right-of-way?

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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by DaveKCMO » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:25 am

If I’m a MoDOT leader, the Hyperloop doesn’t currently cost me anything and the PR value is perceived to help their case for increased funding.

The “study” — which only looked at the market feasibility, not the technical or political — was paid for primarily by private interests.

It’s more than the right of way. We don’t know that it will work, or carry passengers safely — let alone the cost of new infrastructure that would be more subject to security threats than air travel (which is, again, short and plentiful between the two cities).

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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by DaveKCMO » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:00 pm

We're getting a Blue Ribbon! Maybe it will be more successful than the last Blue Ribbon panel for transportation...

https://www.kansascity.com/news/politic ... 58519.html
Critics of Hyperloop say it’s unproven and still something out of science fiction. Although test tracks have been built and demonstrated, they say the technology is a long way from full development. Construction would be prohibitively expensive and that while it may bring in a wealth of jobs and business to cities, it could leave rural areas in the dust.

“First of all they won’t get left behind. We can’t build a hyperloop everywhere in the state like we can build an interstate system,” Haahr said. “What we have to do is -- we’ve never built one anywhere in the country -- we have to have one that has to go first, and once we build that we can go from there.”

Missouri is in a uniquely attractive position to build the Hyperloop, Haahr said, because the Interstate 70 corridor is flat, connects the state’s two largest cities and has the state’s largest university in the middle.

One reporter elicited laughs from the crowd, but not from the panel, when he asked how they would respond to those wondering if they’re on drugs to even consider the possibility of building a Hyperloop in the state.

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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by earthling » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:09 pm

As long as someone else pays for it and only MO investment (perhaps buying right of ways) could be used for a secondary use (such as new I70), go for it. It's potential failure might be a great way to kickstart a new I70 and/or new Amtrak line separated from freight.

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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by normalthings » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:21 pm

earthling wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:09 pm
As long as someone else pays for it and only MO investment (perhaps buying right of ways) could be used for a secondary use (such as new I70), go for it. It's potential failure might be a great way to kickstart a new I70 and/or new Amtrak line separated from freight.
I will bet you $10 they ask for MO money at some point. Whether it’s on day one or day 5,000 when they run out of money, the state will be asked to pitch in at some point.

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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by normalthings » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:22 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:00 pm
We're getting a Blue Ribbon! Maybe it will be more successful than the last Blue Ribbon panel for transportation...

https://www.kansascity.com/news/politic ... 58519.html
Critics of Hyperloop say it’s unproven and still something out of science fiction. Although test tracks have been built and demonstrated, they say the technology is a long way from full development. Construction would be prohibitively expensive and that while it may bring in a wealth of jobs and business to cities, it could leave rural areas in the dust.

“First of all they won’t get left behind. We can’t build a hyperloop everywhere in the state like we can build an interstate system,” Haahr said. “What we have to do is -- we’ve never built one anywhere in the country -- we have to have one that has to go first, and once we build that we can go from there.”

Missouri is in a uniquely attractive position to build the Hyperloop, Haahr said, because the Interstate 70 corridor is flat, connects the state’s two largest cities and has the state’s largest university in the middle.

One reporter elicited laughs from the crowd, but not from the panel, when he asked how they would respond to those wondering if they’re on drugs to even consider the possibility of building a Hyperloop in the state.
Aren’t Florida and Texas flat with bigger and richer cities to connect?

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Re: Hyperloop between KC and STL

Post by earthling » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:25 pm

normalthings wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:21 pm
earthling wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:09 pm
As long as someone else pays for it and only MO investment (perhaps buying right of ways) could be used for a secondary use (such as new I70), go for it. It's potential failure might be a great way to kickstart a new I70 and/or new Amtrak line separated from freight.
I will bet you $10 they ask for MO money at some point. Whether it’s on day one or day 5,000 when they run out of money, the state will be asked to pitch in at some point.
If the amount MO contributes can be applied/re-used for a new I70 if the project fails then maybe. If not then it would be a mistake.

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