Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Transportation topics in KC

What route should the third phase of streetcar expansion follow?

Linwood: Main to Michigan(71 Highway)
7
8%
Country Club ROW: UMKC to Brookside/Waldo
20
24%
Country Club ROW: UMKC through Brookside/Waldo to Prospect
12
14%
Linwood: Main to Emanuel Cleaver 2
8
9%
City/County Wide Rail Project
31
36%
Other
7
8%
 
Total votes: 85

flyingember
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

DaveKCMO wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:03 am
IMO the NKC extension doesn't make sense on its own now, especially if regionally funded. It should be paired with an extension to downtown KCK and operated as a separate route intersecting in the middle of the loop (say, along a two-way 12th -- which was studied in 2014).
Why not a NKC to Indep Ave line? the two areas are 3-4 miles apart and there's no single seat direct service between the two areas. It would connect an area of high poverty to areas of blue collar jobs AND white collar jobs without a long commute.

This creates three lines in a triskellion
Indep Ave to NKC
NKC to UMKC
UMKC to Indep Ave

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by FangKC »

I think a route along 12th Street makes more sense before one into NKC. There are so many parcels along a 12th Street route that would benefit from development and density. Jefferson Street to Tracy, then Admiral ending at Woodland Avenue. That route would also pass the streetcar next to the downtown bus transit center and Greyhound bus station. This route also would service the KCUMB campus and Samuel U. Rodgers Health Center. Paseo West could be completely rebuilt just like Berlin after the War. Independence Avenue could be the later extension.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

FangKC wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:21 am
I think a route along 12th Street makes more sense before one into NKC. There are so many parcels along a 12th Street route that would benefit from development and density. Jefferson Street to Tracy, then Admiral ending at Woodland Avenue. That route would also pass the streetcar next to the downtown bus transit center and Greyhound bus station. This route also would service the KCUMB campus and Samuel U. Rodgers Health Center. Paseo West could be completely rebuilt just like Berlin after the War. Independence Avenue could be the later extension.
The goal isn't to redevelop two miles of a corridor that doesn't benefit 95% of voters in the area, it's to drive demand to vote yes on a regional tax so we can redevelop 100 miles of corridors.

We need to benefit existing residents in poverty, not make them think the city is trying to price them out of their community.

People will support expansion if they can get a better job because they vote yes, not so someone can put up new market rate apartments.

The four critical routes are Indep Ave (poverty), NKC (blue collar jobs), eastern KCK (poverty) the west bottoms (blue collar jobs).'

Follow this with a N-S east side route upgrade + on 39th from whatever the N-S cooridor is to KU Med and then north onto eastern KCK. This connects people on both the east side and KCK to two more jobs centers.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by KCPowercat »

I'm only in on NKC if NKC is the one funding it with casino cash.

Looking at toms map it does seem we are pinning ourselves into a columbus park corner eith no expansion possibilities east without a lot more turns. I'd rather see that line going down indy and turn to 9 highway then we have an opportunity to go down indy to the east if that ever becomes possible.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

I think it is prudent to have eventual planned lines into Platte and Clay counties so they are able to be included in a regional funding plan, along with Jackson, WYCO and JOCO. I would say if you looked at the polling, voters in those suburbs are majority supportive of streetcar but not as much bus.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by beautyfromashes »

I guess this map makes me wonder why we need the riverfront extension at all; just to get the casino? Do the extension across the river to NKC and put a stop just before the bridge at BarK for those going to the riverfront park. What does the riverfront extension get us?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

beautyfromashes wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:13 am
I guess this map makes me wonder why we need the riverfront extension at all; just to get the casino? Do the extension across the river to NKC and put a stop just before the bridge at BarK for those going to the riverfront park. What does the riverfront extension get us?
I also agree that the RF doesn't make much sense except PortKC is willing to pay for it. Having it as a Park and Ride and access to casino seems to be the best functional arguement for it. It's expansion opportunity in the future is limited by geography.

CC: Urban Angle article from a couple years ago.

http://urbanangle.net/getting-riverfront-rail-right/

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by KCPowercat »

beautyfromashes wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:13 am
I guess this map makes me wonder why we need the riverfront extension at all; just to get the casino? Do the extension across the river to NKC and put a stop just before the bridge at BarK for those going to the riverfront park. What does the riverfront extension get us?
Port and the casino are paying for it. Could lead to some big things on the river. It's definitely not for future expansion past the casino but could be a good starting point there for a park and ride situation

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

beautyfromashes wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:13 am
I guess this map makes me wonder why we need the riverfront extension at all; just to get the casino? Do the extension across the river to NKC and put a stop just before the bridge at BarK for those going to the riverfront park. What does the riverfront extension get us?
In theory it enables a commuter system transfer at some point in the future. Even a short walk from one side of the street to the other would be a good one.

And if we can get under I-35 there's thousands of jobs in the east bottoms.

Think even further out, and Front St to Chestnut can connect to a line on Indep Ave with a jog over to Prospect.



Looking past it to a larger regional system you have to look at who benefits

The starter line has X riders from the area when it opens. The expansion gains Y new riders from the expansion area and Z new riders from the starter line area who want to travel to the expansion area.

So the total ridership of the new expanded system is greater than the sum of it's parts.

And in terms of a vote, the more people who are pro-transit the better the chance it passes.
If there's already thousands of people driving into downtown to ride the streetcar, the idea that someone can now ride from the plaza and reach the riverfront is just a small number of people who didn't ride before.

Let's imagine it's just one person telling two and they each tell two and so on, a doubling each generation. Let's say it takes 4 weeks for this to happen. In one year you've reached 3072 people.
At the end of the second year it's 25 million. Doubling becomes very powerful very quickly. Sure, we won't reach 25 million real world but even a fraction of that is a big deal.

We need to reach more people and start the discussion. And if a small expansion to the riverfront helps do that, it's worth it

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by beautyfromashes »

Yeah, I hate the talk about Park and Ride but that's probably a whole other discussion. The riverfront extension just makes the system messy. Some trains go to a deadend riverfront line and others to NKC just seems like it will bring confusion. I guess at some point the system gets big enough that it's more than one continuous line and you have to make sure you're on the right car to where you're going. I could see people thinking they are going to NKC and end up on the "casino line" or vice versa. If the Riverfront park is going to be a staging area for an eventual true light rail train to the airport or stadiums, I see the benefit in that though I don't think that will ever happen. The more likely result is suburban style apartment complexes built on the riverfront land just because the line goes there and its cheap. Seems that's the opposite of the whole point of the streetcar, imo though.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

KCPowercat wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:28 am
beautyfromashes wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:13 am
I guess this map makes me wonder why we need the riverfront extension at all; just to get the casino? Do the extension across the river to NKC and put a stop just before the bridge at BarK for those going to the riverfront park. What does the riverfront extension get us?
Port and the casino are paying for it. Could lead to some big things on the river. It's definitely not for future expansion past the casino but could be a good starting point there for a park and ride situation
It will never be a practical park and ride, we can't possibly run enough trains in the area to serve a park and ride site, and it absolutely should be expanded past the casino.

150 vehicle capacity every 10 minutes is 900 per hour. Over two hours, 1800 people. That's something like 2% of total downtown parking.
Far better to use the system to do away with needing cars for more people across the network than to spend hundreds of millions moving existing parking to a new spot.

It's the number of jobs to the east that it could reach that should be important for this expansion

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

beautyfromashes wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:56 am
Yeah, I hate the talk about Park and Ride but that's probably a whole other discussion. The riverfront extension just makes the system messy. Some trains go to a deadend riverfront line and others to NKC just seems like it will bring confusion. I guess at some point the system gets big enough that it's more than one continuous line and you have to make sure you're on the right car to where you're going. I could see people thinking they are going to NKC and end up on the "casino line" or vice versa. If the Riverfront park is going to be a staging area for an eventual true light rail train to the airport or stadiums, I see the benefit in that though I don't think that will ever happen. The more likely result is suburban style apartment complexes built on the riverfront land just because the line goes there and its cheap. Seems that's the opposite of the whole point of the streetcar, imo though.
Confusion because there's two choices for a route? I think you way underestimate people.

https://www.tokyometro.jp/lang_en/stati ... ber_en.pdf

3.2 million daily riders figure out this system.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

alejandro46 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:22 am
beautyfromashes wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:13 am
I guess this map makes me wonder why we need the riverfront extension at all; just to get the casino? Do the extension across the river to NKC and put a stop just before the bridge at BarK for those going to the riverfront park. What does the riverfront extension get us?
I also agree that the RF doesn't make much sense except PortKC is willing to pay for it. Having it as a Park and Ride and access to casino seems to be the best functional arguement for it. It's expansion opportunity in the future is limited by geography.

CC: Urban Angle article from a couple years ago.

http://urbanangle.net/getting-riverfront-rail-right/
RF makes plenty of sense.

The riverfront is going to be at 1,000+ residents in a year with thousands more coming over the next ten years. One of the biggest gains from this project imho is that it connects downtown with a quality urban park, something that is missing from downtown life. Connecting Bark-K and the other planned amenities will be good for downtown overall. The RF will soon be a built out urban neighorhood.

Longterm, I guess it could go to east bottoms but I doubt that happens. Even Isle of Capri seems to be a ways off. If it does go there, I think its more realistic for it to connect with busses to the east and north.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by beautyfromashes »

normalthings wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:08 am
The riverfront is going to be at 1,000+ residents in a year with thousands more coming over the next ten years. One of the biggest gains from this project imho is that it connects downtown with a quality urban park, something that is missing from downtown life. Connecting Bark-K and the other planned amenities will be good for downtown overall. The RF will soon be a built out urban neighorhood.

Longterm, I guess it could go to east bottoms but I doubt that happens. It could transfer rides to an EB bus line though. Even Isle of Capri seems to be a ways off.
Not sure you’ve heard of it, but Penn Valley Park is at the south end of the current streetcar. You should check it out. It has the potential to be very nice and has a great view of DT.

The big question is why PVP hasn’t taken off with development like privatized BRP? How about we take the handcuffs off that park and let places like BarK open there or build on the edges. Our archaic park rules are holding us back.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

flyingember wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:09 am
DaveKCMO wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:03 am
IMO the NKC extension doesn't make sense on its own now, especially if regionally funded. It should be paired with an extension to downtown KCK and operated as a separate route intersecting in the middle of the loop (say, along a two-way 12th -- which was studied in 2014).
Why not a NKC to Indep Ave line? the two areas are 3-4 miles apart and there's no single seat direct service between the two areas. It would connect an area of high poverty to areas of blue collar jobs AND white collar jobs without a long commute.

This creates three lines in a triskellion
Indep Ave to NKC
NKC to UMKC
UMKC to Indep Ave
Because that's not very regional.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

NKC isn't a different city in the region?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by TheLastGentleman »

Considering we’re running a streetcar down to Berkley riverfront with its grand total of two buildings, I’d say nowhere in the city is too undeveloped to not warrant a streetcar line

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:22 pm
Considering we’re running a streetcar down to Berkley riverfront with its grand total of two buildings, I’d say nowhere in the city is too undeveloped to not warrant a streetcar line
There's already more than two buildings and has been for some time. It will be at five before the end of the year.

Union: two
BarK: one
CORE: two more under construction since July

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

My opinion has always been to run the Streetcar across the river to NKC with the eventual goal of connecting to Metro North ( Clay ) + Zona Rosa + KCI (Platte) in the coming decades in order to net as much funding possible from those areas for the regional system. PortKC has put a ton of money into the Berkley park and understandably wants to leverage the Streetcar to help spur development as well as connect to the Casino. It's short sighted, but it relies on a separate source of funding so it doesn't impact regional growth except to make a somewhat confusing short spur.

It boils down to what the KCATA/Streetcar board cook up as the most likely funding solution for expansion of rail and making the bus system work. I think having a regional rail plan that is shovel ready, somewhat designed and scoped out can help developers, utilities and municipalities prepare better so they don't invest in improving local roads to the extent they are going to have to be replaced when rails are installed anyways and, most importantly, that voters can see what they are getting in exchange for their tax dollars. Our network will be stronger when Clay, Platte, Jackson, Wyandotte and JOCO all vote together for the transit plan.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

alejandro46 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:11 pm
My opinion has always been to run the Streetcar across the river to NKC with the eventual goal of connecting to Metro North ( Clay ) + Zona Rosa + KCI (Platte) in the coming decades in order to net as much funding possible from those areas for the regional system. PortKC has put a ton of money into the Berkley park and understandably wants to leverage the Streetcar to help spur development as well as connect to the Casino. It's short sighted, but it relies on a separate source of funding so it doesn't impact regional growth except to make a somewhat confusing short spur.

It boils down to what the KCATA/Streetcar board cook up as the most likely funding solution for expansion of rail and making the bus system work. I think having a regional rail plan that is shovel ready, somewhat designed and scoped out can help developers, utilities and municipalities prepare better so they don't invest in improving local roads to the extent they are going to have to be replaced when rails are installed anyways and, most importantly, that voters can see what they are getting in exchange for their tax dollars. Our network will be stronger when Clay, Platte, Jackson, Wyandotte and JOCO all vote together for the transit plan.
Streetcar is not a mod meant for the suburbs. The vehicles top out at what 35-40mph? We need tram-train or LRT for real suburban coverage.

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