Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Transportation topics in KC

What route should the third phase of streetcar expansion follow?

Linwood: Main to Michigan(71 Highway)
7
10%
Country Club ROW: UMKC to Brookside/Waldo
14
20%
Country Club ROW: UMKC through Brookside/Waldo to Prospect
11
16%
Linwood: Main to Emanuel Cleaver 2
7
10%
City/County Wide Rail Project
24
35%
Other
6
9%
 
Total votes: 69

earthling
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by earthling » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:30 pm

Yeah, agree if Indie Ave is mostly funded by TDD, could be a challenge. North KC might be more willing, not sure if enough commercial density to offset the lower population density but might work. A tie into downtown North KC would be a destination for outsiders, potentially increasing tax revenue along the line.

Any expansion could be a challenge if mostly funded by TDD.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:34 pm

In the 2014 election the precincts directly along the Indep Ave line proposed then had some of the highest Yes votes in that election on the entire east side and it was still a No.

I know there's legal reasons a streetcar vote and free bus vote couldn't be bundled but this would be such an easy sell to way more people.

On the I-70 section in my visualization we took away two lanes for cars and there's 10,000 more people living in downtown KCK because of TOD

NKC it's challenge is obviously the cost to cross the river still. Once that's figured out I would expect NKC gets on board asap. They're keeping the train in mind with their recent changes so there's less rework to support it

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FangKC
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by FangKC » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:50 pm

Yes, if the streetcar tax election was combined with a free bus vote, then it might pass.

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normalthings
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:14 pm

https://marc2.org/tr_rtp/browseprojects.aspx

If you want to see more Streetcar, please fill out the comment cards for the 3 KC Streetcar Projects with words of support.

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DaveKCMO
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO » Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:23 pm

normalthings wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:14 pm
https://marc2.org/tr_rtp/browseprojects.aspx

If you want to see more Streetcar, please fill out the comment cards for the 3 KC Streetcar Projects with words of support.
Yes, please do this.

There is only one official* expansion plan until a future council sets a new direction: http://cityclerk.kcmo.org/liveweb/Docum ... RsciM2TJNE

*Official as defined by the city of Kansas City, Missouri, which owns the current streetcar system.

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DaveKCMO
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO » Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:24 pm

FangKC wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:50 pm
Yes, if the streetcar tax election was combined with a free bus vote, then it might pass.
*cough cough*

I don't know what you're talking about.

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KCtoBrooklyn
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by KCtoBrooklyn » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:44 am

Does anyone have an idea on how much could be saved with the "trackless streetcar" trams?

I get that is doesn't have the permanence of rails in the ground, but if you add in nice stops/stations with level boarding and potentially some areas of dedicated right-of-way, it would be less ephemeral than a bus line.

Standard streetcar would be ideal, but if the trackless trams are more feasible and could be implemented more quickly, I would be all on board. Those could also make a lot of sense on a route where some flexibility would be useful, such as a Linwood line where they could run to the stadiums around game times for minimal additional cost.

earthling
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by earthling » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:05 am

Yeah I brought it up on last page. IIRC, Dave implied they don't cost less to operate in the end but I'd like to see the study on that. Rails and catenary system require more maintenance that increases with more miles. The people cost and maintenance facility likely the bulk of cost for any system.

These self-powered electric trams look and operate like streetcars otherwise and would be great for lines like 31st, Linwood, 18th/Vine to SW Blvd. And target streetcar expansion where it can realistically attract TOD developers.

https://www.dezeen.com/2017/11/06/world ... rt-design/

Should improve over time as battery technology advances...
Ten minutes of charge can power the electric vehicle for 25 kilometres (15.5 miles). It can reach speeds of up to 43 miles per hour (69 kilometres per hour) and is said to have a life-span of around 25 years.
Image

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KCtoBrooklyn
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by KCtoBrooklyn » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:22 am

While all electric would be nice, there are also hybrid versions that I assume would be cheaper:

Image

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DaveKCMO
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:53 am

KCtoBrooklyn wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:44 am
Does anyone have an idea on how much could be saved with the "trackless streetcar" trams?

I get that is doesn't have the permanence of rails in the ground, but if you add in nice stops/stations with level boarding and potentially some areas of dedicated right-of-way, it would be less ephemeral than a bus line.

Standard streetcar would be ideal, but if the trackless trams are more feasible and could be implemented more quickly, I would be all on board. Those could also make a lot of sense on a route where some flexibility would be useful, such as a Linwood line where they could run to the stadiums around game times for minimal additional cost.
Vehicles are the biggest line item in a streetcar and MAX budgets, outside of consultant fees (engineers, planning, public involvement). Track and catenary are expensive, but cities that went off-wire (OKC and Detroit) still spent a lot of money ($135 million and $137 million, respectively).

Pavement quality is a huge issue with these next-generation buses. Not sure why anyone thinks KCMO would treat this pavement differently than they do today. Take the fact that they're not repaving Prospect prior to the MAX launch as a real-life example.

Someone outside of China will need to take the first leap before they're considered for KC. The trackless tram concept vehicle from China is $2.2 million, which is over twice the cost of an electric bus. The only benefit I see is higher capacity and the ability to make tighter turns (and do we really need the latter outside of the River to Plaza corridor?).

earthling
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by earthling » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:33 am

Pavement quality is a good point, maintaining that could be nearly as expensive as maintaining rails/catenary, at least in winter cities. And maybe more disruptive because rail/catenary can be repaired during off hours, pavement takes more time to dry/set. And in KC's case, operating 3 maintenance facilities (bus, streetcar and a very different 3rd technology) may not make sense.

MAX with level boarding would be fine for most highish volume lines and I'd rather see more low capacity buses than fewer high capacity - that is, not lose 10-15 minute headways due to larger capacity buses.

But I do think streetcar extension should go where there is already just enough critical mass and can most likely attract TOD and boost more destinations that would draw outsiders to the line. Indep Ave, NKC or 18th/Vine-SW Blvd could fit that. So could Brookside/Waldo if they'll bite and allow repurposing bike path.

Though if we can get free bus going, should we even bother with pursuing more streetcar extensions and instead focus on level boarding bus stops?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:01 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:23 pm
normalthings wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:14 pm
https://marc2.org/tr_rtp/browseprojects.aspx

If you want to see more Streetcar, please fill out the comment cards for the 3 KC Streetcar Projects with words of support.
Yes, please do this.

There is only one official* expansion plan until a future council sets a new direction: http://cityclerk.kcmo.org/liveweb/Docum ... RsciM2TJNE

*Official as defined by the city of Kansas City, Missouri, which owns the current streetcar system.
The 3 Streetcar have less than 30 combined comments. A single highway expansion has a few hundred. :(

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