Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Transportation topics in KC

What route should the third phase of streetcar expansion follow?

Linwood: Main to Michigan(71 Highway)
11
10%
Country Club ROW: UMKC to Brookside/Waldo
24
22%
Country Club ROW: UMKC through Brookside/Waldo to Prospect
14
13%
Linwood: Main to Emanuel Cleaver 2
13
12%
City/County Wide Rail Project
40
36%
Other
9
8%
 
Total votes: 111

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normalthings
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

alejandro46 wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:59 pm Would zero fare bus be enough to convince Wyandotte and JOCO to vote for a bistate tax?

I'd also be curious what polling would look like if you switched up to include some kind of rail to Kansas + free bus if that got any more votes.
IMHO It won't be enough for the suburban counties. Suburban voters won't approve buses alone. Suburban voters don't really use transit currently and don't really have a reason to come out and vote yes. We have to sell the value of public transit to JOCO Karen who drives a mom tank.
alejandro46 wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:59 pm I'd also be curious what polling would look like if you switched up to include some kind of rail to Kansas + free bus if that got any more votes.
I don't think it is unrealistic to say that the only transit the average suburban voter has ridden is the streetcar if any. I think that by adding a rail component, it will be easier for voters to identify with that they would be getting out of a transit initiative. I think previous surveys showed that pretty much everyone who tries streetcar loved it so it could be dangled in front of voters.
alejandro46 wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:59 pm KS is too sprawl-ed out to really make any rail worthwhile unless you did the West Bottoms to KCK which, as Dave said, would suck up a ton of capital dollars (couple hundred $m per Next Rail if I recall).
I really think you would need to throw JOCO a rail bone, not KCK, for it to have any real effect on suburban voters. Streetcar to downtown KCK really isn't going to sway many voters nor do much for ridership. A slightly longer line could be built from RM through NKC to NKC Hospital/Cerner HQ and draw the support of NKC/Clay voters while also connecting 2 significant, regional job centers to the rest of the streetcar system.

The transit initiative could include an outline for a line to OverlandPark and/or college boulevard, a line to NKC/North Oak, a line to Jackson County, and a line to Independence. A few starter routes could be proposed for immediate build-out with the rest to follow in the future.

If done without Federal grants, we do not need to include the additional required 33% budget contingency. The benefit of a regional funding mechanism is that you could raise enough ($300 million per year is estimated) to pay for cap-ex in cash - saving significant financing costs. Let's say most of the funding the 1st 2 years isn't spent while detailed plans for a bus expansion are made. Suddenly you have $600 million in the bank, earning millions in interest, that you could use for a sizable rail line. With a federal match, that is almost enough needed for that proposed line to College Boulevard.


You could also try pursuing some funds from Kansas or KDOT. @Davekcmo, Could Kansas Streetcar qualify for STAR Bonds under the argument that it is "touristy fru fru"? :D :D
Last edited by normalthings on Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by TheLastGentleman »

I think you have a good point about rail being easier for suburbanites to support than other mass transit ideas
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Chris Stritzel
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Chris Stritzel »

Rail service, while it could be a way to win over some voters, has worked to some degree in STL, especially if you live in the dense inner ring of the County. However, some people just aren't in favor of Light Rail coming through their neighborhoods in any part of the STL region. It's the way things are. If you presented a KC Streetcar style rail line in the KC suburbs, maybe you would have some support from denser areas that could experience some infill along a corridor. These suburbs and towns would probably love it if some new things were built to either A: create a town center or B: strengthen the town centers they currently have. However, I don't know what the full situation is in Kansas City and people's opinions on it, so I could be horribly long.

In my opinion, I think a strong BRT/Light Rail network in the suburbs would fair well with some people and maybe convince them to vote for expanding transit a ways down the line. Most people seem too skeptical of transit in the suburbs of any American city with maybe the exception of New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago. Kansas City, I'm not so sure about. Quite frankly, the cost of Light Rail is pretty high at this point in time to make it doable in some cities. For example, the North-South MetroLink in STL has ballooned from $667 Million to close to $1 Billion. We don't have enough tax revenue or projected ridership to fund that expansion to make a billion-dollar investment worthwhile. It's just not economical (in our case). I don't know what the full cost of the two streetcar extensions are, but I doubt they're a billion dollars. No doubt though that Light Rail could be sold to people living in the KC suburbs if planning and selling were done correctly. The streetcar has been successful, so why can't a Light Rail network?

If the tax pool can generate a few billion dollars if a bi-state tax plan is approved in the Kansas City area after selling the idea to suburb residents, no doubt that Light Rail can become a reality for KC, but ridership can make or break it. Stations would have to be positioned in a way to promote ridership and not be situated on the far edges of towns and neighborhoods. Stations need to be close to population centers. Maybe invest in BRT lines in some skeptical areas first then if those are successful, start studying the idea of Light Rail replacements. For Kansas City, I see Light Rail as being doable if the plan focuses on areas of higher population density and job centers. Even in the suburbs, there must be things like that.

Light Rail would connect people to jobs and places. BRT can as well, but in some cases, BRT can become hectic and not people's first choice for transit simply because you could have some jerks in a bus lane holding up travel times. I don't know though. In my opinion, aim for a much more robust Streetcar system and maybe let it run on it's own ROW to practically turn it into Light Rail segments for faster travel times. A network of fixed rail in KC would have to be studied closely and offered up for recommendations and comments from residents of the surrounding counties. The only way you'll sell something like this is to engage them and keep them involved in the plan.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by langosta »

TheLastGentleman wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:28 am I think you have a good point about rail being easier for suburbanites to support than other mass transit ideas
Agreed. No rail = fails outside the core
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

The counterpoint is there's been no fast bus service in any suburb at this point. "No rail = fails" isn't as true as "why would I pay for any transit to wait longer and get there slower than driving?"

The efforts to speed up the bus on key cooridors if it's done in a way that's clearly better than sitting in traffic can work well to increase transit demand which will increase demand to pay for rail.

1. free
2. doesn't stop every two blocks
3. has it's own lane as much as possible so it can speed by a long line of cars.
4. Signal priority that is designed to prioritize busses


Here's Houston's system ridership stats. Remember, they have one of the widest freeways in the country

https://www.ridemetro.org/Pages/Ridersh ... 02019.aspx
In just October they had 795,000 commuter lot park and ride boardings. The total bus ridership for the month was 5.5 million. There were 1.69 million light rail boardings in one month on top of that.

We clearly have demand for transit based on our rail ridership rivaling theirs per mile and with way less bus ridership feeding it, if we design it to make riding as easy as driving we'll see demand grow for rail
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

flyingember wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:23 am The counterpoint is there's been no fast bus service in any suburb at this point. "No rail = fails" isn't as true as "why would I pay for any transit to wait longer and get there slower than driving?"

The efforts to speed up the bus on key cooridors if it's done in a way that's clearly better than sitting in traffic can work well to increase transit demand which will increase demand to pay for rail.

1. free
2. doesn't stop every two blocks
3. has it's own lane as much as possible so it can speed by a long line of cars.
4. Signal priority that is designed to prioritize busses


Here's Houston's system ridership stats. Remember, they have one of the widest freeways in the country

https://www.ridemetro.org/Pages/Ridersh ... 02019.aspx
In just October they had 795,000 commuter lot park and ride boardings. The total bus ridership for the month was 5.5 million. There were 1.69 million light rail boardings in one month on top of that.

We clearly have demand for transit based on our rail ridership rivaling theirs per mile and with way less bus ridership feeding it, if we design it to make riding as easy as driving we'll see demand grow for rail
I don’t think bus would pass simply because suburbanites don’t use it now and thus won’t envision themselves using it in the future. Sure, maybe once it opens they will see that it’s not so bad but the average voter is going to have no concept of BRT. Rail is something that people are now generally familiar with and supportive of. They understand how it works and how voting yes on a plan with it could benefit them directly.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by kboish »

An effort to pass a JoCo tax for transit should include an information campaign on their future traffic projections effect on travel time and the cost to widen/maintain their current highway system to alleviate those travel times VS. the cost to invest in transit (rail and bus). I'm sure it will shock everyone which is cheaper.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

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kboish wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:45 pm An effort to pass a JoCo tax for transit should include an information campaign on their future traffic projections effect on travel time and the cost to widen/maintain their current highway system to alleviate those travel times VS. the cost to invest in transit (rail and bus). I'm sure it will shock everyone which is cheaper.
Brilliant
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

JoCo did study commuter rail alignment along i-35 and found it greatly exceeded the ROI of a BRT or bus on shoulder alternative (50m v 300m).
https://www.jocogov.org/sites/default/f ... ecSumm.pdf

However, instead of doing a heavy commuter rail proposal to get Kansas and Northlander's buy in, here is what I would do with a hypothetical hundreds of millions per year in a 4 county TDD district. I would make sure this was somewhat above the existing transit tax and propose studying a long-term tiered transit master plan of BRT transitioning to Rails as dollars and ridership dictate over the next 50 years:

Obviously citywide bus upgrade/0 cost. Perhaps focus on maximum coverage and improve usability for current system. Don't think we should get rid of current system, just improve BRT/Rail.

JoCo: Ward Parkway - Shawnee Mission Pkway to Johnson Drive, turn left at Metcalf and go as far as the money would take you terminating at College and Metcalf.

Wyandotte: Central Ave through WB to 7th ST downtown KCK.

Clay:
  • HOA bridge up Burlington to North Oak, continuing up dedicated ROW to Cookingham Dr, follow Cookingham to KCI.
    Maybe East along Armour to Cerner/NKCH. When the NorthRail study was done, I believe they determined that the I-35 bridge over Armour is too low for a streetcar.
Jackson County:
  • Berkley RFP Streetcar expansion.
    Independence Ave East to Hardesty BRT (highest bus ridership I believe), continuing on to terminate in Independence. The grade does get super steep along Indep. Ave, however, and low density along the route. Lots of room for development
    E 31st and Linwood East to TSC (Early SC expansion, high development potential)
Platte County: North Oak along Barry Road ending in Zona Rosa.
Last edited by alejandro46 on Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by earthling »

From what I recall, the challenge with commuter rail on existing freight lines is that the freight companies would have to upgrade the rail crossings to 'passenger grade', which not only costs $ but also disruptive. And they don't want passenger priority over freight priority. I don't recall the details but something along those lines.

One of the downsides of being one of the largest freight rail centers. STL was able to use old freight lines for LRT. KC's freight growth doesn't allow for that other than Katy Trail.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

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"Buses? I ain't voting for stupid buses!" -- every suburbanite ever
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

earthling wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:41 pm From what I recall, the challenge with commuter rail on existing freight lines is that the freight companies would have to upgrade the rail crossings to 'passenger grade', which not only costs $ but also disruptive. And they don't want passenger priority over freight priority. I don't recall the details but something along those lines.

One of the downsides of being one of the largest freight rail centers. STL was able to use old freight lines for LRT. KC's freight growth doesn't allow for that other than Katy Trail.
Yes, that aligns with my understanding, especially of the Jackson County commuter rail plans. The freight lines are in no way willing to give any usage of their lines that would delay their traffic. Jackson County had to pay tons to get that Rock Island Railroad corridor (which I did forget about in my previous post, but would also be a potential rail line long long term past TSC).

One of the nice things about the Urbos streetcars we are running is that they are available in raised-type configurations if we wanted to run dedicated rail along certain routes, we could stay in the same family and take advantage of reduced fees to purchase and parts interchangeability. Plus a top speed of 56 mph! Speedy!

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

I'm calling bullshit on the trackless tram heist. It's called an autonomous bus. The ones I've seen proposed that require lane markings are running on asphalt in the open air (and the vehicles aren't currently in production). As long as that's the case, it will not be an improvement over rail when it comes to ride quality. Also, they haven't been deployed anywhere in revenue service.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

mean wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:41 pm "Buses? I ain't voting for stupid buses!" -- every suburbanite ever
Don't be so sure about that. They've never been asked.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

DaveKCMO wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:00 pm
mean wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:41 pm "Buses? I ain't voting for stupid buses!" -- every suburbanite ever
Don't be so sure about that. They've never been asked.
We have a proxy within KCMO itself.

The 3/8 cent transportation tax was renewed in 2015, on the Nov 2014 ballot (midterms).

67-32 in KCEB
73-26 in Clay
70-30 in Platte

The suburban parts of the city were MORE for funding bus service than the urban core. All but one Republican with a Democrat running too won their seat in that election in Clay and Platte.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

Correct. And we've never had a transit-specific election in Wyandotte or Johnson.

A poll conducted years ago indicated voters were more likely to support a regional system that was regionally funded. Unfortunately, I only have a reference to the results and not the entire poll.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by mean »

I guess I just hang out with the wrong suburbanites. People who say things like, "If I had to take the bus to work I'd just not go in."
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

mean wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:56 pm I guess I just hang out with the wrong suburbanites. People who say things like, "If I had to take the bus to work I'd just not go in."
That doesn't mean they won't vote for a tax so someone else can take the bus... like their nurse or barista.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

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mean wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:56 pm I guess I just hang out with the wrong suburbanites. People who say things like, "If I had to take the bus to work I'd just not go in."
I hear about the fear of cooties from those who live in sterility - and there are indeed useful cooties. Am convinced that taking city buses regularly builds up the immune system as you are exposed to pretty much everything out there in small enough doses, which is how vaccines work.

Before taking bus I once had pneumonia and was sick every winter for 6 years. Then started taking city buses regularly, building up immune system and haven't been sick for 15+ years outside occasional light allergies (which Coscto's Zyrtec knockoff easily fixes). Was on a cruise a few years ago where many got mildly sick, I didn't. Taking bus seems to be the reason, though many who do take bus regularly do get sick at times so of course other factors in play.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by FangKC »

There is truth to what you are saying. I worked at two different medical centers in my career, and spent 10 years taking transit in New York City. Since, I very rarely get sick with colds or flu. When I do, I get over it very quickly. My grandma had 9 kids and worked as a caretaker to a lot of sick people. She lived to be almost 104 and never had any major illness in her life. School teachers and nurses also tend to live a long time; and doctors guess it's because they develop really strong immune systems being exposed to so many pathogens all the time. So it might be good for people to take public transit. :lol:

That said, most people pick up viruses on doors, elevator buttons, hand rails, etc. For seniors living alone, one of the primary vectors is opening their mail.
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