Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Transportation topics in KC

What route should the third phase of streetcar expansion follow?

Linwood: Main to Michigan(71 Highway)
11
10%
Country Club ROW: UMKC to Brookside/Waldo
24
22%
Country Club ROW: UMKC through Brookside/Waldo to Prospect
14
13%
Linwood: Main to Emanuel Cleaver 2
13
12%
City/County Wide Rail Project
40
36%
Other
9
8%
 
Total votes: 111

flyingember
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

That's a big deal.

Today 238.207 allows the owners of the property to be the only qualified voters of a district so they're the voters to enable a sales tax. This has allowed a bunch of shopping centers to setup TDDs. Basically, enact a tax to pay for parking and roads inside the development.

This looks to effectively cut off this method of imposing a new tax.


TDDs are under the menu tab on the far right, CIDs are front and center
https://mogov.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapS ... 27b1bedb0e
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normalthings
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

flyingember wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:36 pm That's a big deal.

Today 238.207 allows the owners of the property to be the only qualified voters of a district so they're the voters to enable a sales tax. This has allowed a bunch of shopping centers to setup TDDs. Basically, enact a tax to pay for parking and roads inside the development.

This looks to effectively cut off this method of imposing a new tax.


TDDs are under the menu tab on the far right, CIDs are front and center
https://mogov.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapS ... 27b1bedb0e
Tell Parsons to VETO the bill until this section is removed or it is changed so that big cities such as KC do not have this silly new requirement.

Contact Form: https://governor.mo.gov/contact-us

IT would be great if we could get davekcmo and others to push this on their public channels
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Chris Stritzel
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Chris Stritzel »

What a dumb new rule. Immediate Veto if I were governor.
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DaveKCMO
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

No impact to KC streetcar, since the existing TDD structure isn't supported by any other part of the city. It only works downtown and midtown (the 2014 expansion that went east was supported by the values in downtown and midtown).

Any additional streetcar expansion would need to be supported by other funding mechanisms anyway due to the high capital cost and low real estate values along most other transit corridors.

Side note: This would have made Missouri's largest TDD -- the three-county district that funded freeway upgrades to US-36 -- not possible because it would have required maybe dozens of municipalities to approve. Also, the TDD that funds parking garage construction and operations on the Plaza and in P&L also probably would not pass citywide votes as they are both sales tax only.

It's less clear how a CID for a neighborhood (Westport, Brookside, Downtown) -- rather than, say, a luxury hotel -- that's supported by a mix of special assessments and sales taxes would fare in a citywide election.

Either way, this should be vetoed and replaced by other TDD/CID reforms. Special interests (developers) are already pushing this with the Gov, and a public push from urbanites might have the opposite effect.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

Interestingly, it doesn’t impact creating a TDD and imposing a property tax or special assessment with a district only vote.

I guess the supporters figured a commercial property owner wouldn’t impose extra property taxes on themselves only.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

I generally find Show Me to be overly focused on their views on any topic at the expense of the public but this report is really well done

And it makes it painfully clear they’re a probable primary influence on of the new law, at the very least, given it’s only 12 months old and all but says exactly what I thought

https://showmeinstitute.org/file/5442/d ... n=HnoU3a6L
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

flyingember wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:34 pm I generally find Show Me to be overly focused on their views on any topic at the expense of the public but this report is really well done

And it makes it painfully clear they’re a probable primary influence on of the new law, at the very least, given it’s only 12 months old and all but says exactly what I thought

https://showmeinstitute.org/file/5442/d ... n=HnoU3a6L
They do note an important reform that must be addressed: Single property owners should not be allowed to form sale-tax-only special districts on their own behalf. The InterContinental example is the most egregious, but Council has approved too many of them to list.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by shinatoo »

DaveKCMO wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:52 am
flyingember wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:34 pm I generally find Show Me to be overly focused on their views on any topic at the expense of the public but this report is really well done

And it makes it painfully clear they’re a probable primary influence on of the new law, at the very least, given it’s only 12 months old and all but says exactly what I thought

https://showmeinstitute.org/file/5442/d ... n=HnoU3a6L
They do note an important reform that must be addressed: Single property owners should not be allowed to form sale-tax-only special districts on their own behalf. The InterContinental example is the most egregious, but Council has approved too many of them to list.
On the other hand. There was a single land owner in Lees Summit that formed a TDD to pay for an interchange at Struthers Road. Now most of that land is developed and the land owners are paying for the interchange and I'm not.
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normalthings
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

shinatoo wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:47 am
DaveKCMO wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:52 am
flyingember wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:34 pm I generally find Show Me to be overly focused on their views on any topic at the expense of the public but this report is really well done

And it makes it painfully clear they’re a probable primary influence on of the new law, at the very least, given it’s only 12 months old and all but says exactly what I thought

https://showmeinstitute.org/file/5442/d ... n=HnoU3a6L
They do note an important reform that must be addressed: Single property owners should not be allowed to form sale-tax-only special districts on their own behalf. The InterContinental example is the most egregious, but Council has approved too many of them to list.
On the other hand. There was a single land owner in Lees Summit that formed a TDD to pay for an interchange at Struthers Road. Now most of that land is developed and the land owners are paying for the interchange and I'm not.
So maybe single landowner CID should be allowed for public infrastructure but not private
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

shinatoo wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:47 am
On the other hand. There was a single land owner in Lees Summit that formed a TDD to pay for an interchange at Struthers Road. Now most of that land is developed and the land owners are paying for the interchange and I'm not.
I found it on the map. Strothers Road and there's a 0.5% sales tax so shoppers are helping pay for the interchange

There was also a TIF
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

shinatoo wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:47 am
DaveKCMO wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:52 am
flyingember wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:34 pm I generally find Show Me to be overly focused on their views on any topic at the expense of the public but this report is really well done

And it makes it painfully clear they’re a probable primary influence on of the new law, at the very least, given it’s only 12 months old and all but says exactly what I thought

https://showmeinstitute.org/file/5442/d ... n=HnoU3a6L
They do note an important reform that must be addressed: Single property owners should not be allowed to form sale-tax-only special districts on their own behalf. The InterContinental example is the most egregious, but Council has approved too many of them to list.
On the other hand. There was a single land owner in Lees Summit that formed a TDD to pay for an interchange at Struthers Road. Now most of that land is developed and the land owners are paying for the interchange and I'm not.
I'm mostly focused on sales-tax-only CIDs. Much more abuse there because the law is looser on what the money can be used for (like renovating a hotel). TDDs have to build something that can be handed over to a transportation authority (city, county, DOT, etc.). I don't like TDDs being used for parking structures, but that's better than using general funds.

We also need to print these districts on sales receipts. I think this might even be the law in Missouri but there's no enforcement mechanism.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

The state audit from a few years ago pointed out retailers must post when someone is paying more from being in a district and that it was rarely done.

Yet another item that feels like a cause of the new law as the most extreme method of notification they could come up with because of failure to follow a stupidly simple method.
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normalthings
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

This week's poll for the new city master plan is on transportation in our city. Great time to plug the need for regional transit and light rail!

https://playbook.kcmo.gov/
Walker
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Walker »

The Jackson County Stadium sales tax expires in a little over 10 years from now. The 3/8th cent sales tax produces about $40 million per year with another $7 million from KCMO. That isn't soon enough to use for a county transit initiative but it could be rolled into a "phase two."

2022 - KC and Jackson County go in on a 1% sales tax producing ~$106 million per year
2023 to 2030 - Bus and rail lines are built out.
2031 - Jackson County 3/8th sales tax is renewed and shifted to transit. "No tax increase" transit plan.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by horizons82 »

I have a hard time believing that stadium tax is going to actually go away. At least not quietly. My bet is on a campaign to re-up it to get new stadiums in downtown and either at TSC or KCK.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by beermestrength »

horizons82 wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:27 am I have a hard time believing that stadium tax is going to actually go away. At least not quietly. My bet is on a campaign to re-up it to get new stadiums in downtown and either at TSC or KCK.
Yep. You're either going to renew it to refurb the old ones again or build new ones. Or let the teams leave. The owners will never use their own money to build stadiums.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Walker »

horizons82 wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:27 am I have a hard time believing that stadium tax is going to actually go away. At least not quietly. My bet is on a campaign to re-up it to get new stadiums in downtown and either at TSC or KCK.
Interesting. I had assumed at least 1 team goes to Kansas which would cut Jackson County's costs in half (or more if the private Royals stadium rumors are true).
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normalthings
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

North KC City Council has asked KC Streetcar to present updates on the current extension and future opportunities.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

normalthings wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:28 pm North KC City Council has asked KC Streetcar to present updates on the current extension and future opportunities.
Now that the O'Neil Bridge is happening and MoDOT loosens its grip on Burlington/MO-9, a proper streetcar running straight up Burlington (dedicated lanes, no diversions) to 32nd is a much better idea for NKC than the single-track compromise NorthRail landed on.

Image
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normalthings
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

DaveKCMO wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:11 am
normalthings wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:28 pm North KC City Council has asked KC Streetcar to present updates on the current extension and future opportunities.
Now that the O'Neil Bridge is happening and MoDOT loosens its grip on Burlington/MO-9, a proper streetcar running straight up Burlington (dedicated lanes, no diversions) to 32nd is a much better idea for NKC than the single-track compromise NorthRail landed on.

Image
Dave, if you were to be employing a dedicated ROW, could you not just use the existing road base as the base for a tie-ballast streetcar?

I know that concrete roads have the same depth as the streetcar foundation.
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