Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

[normalthings]

Why would we want to connect with Overland Park? Sure, they get connection to a vibrant DT for entertainment and jobs. What do we get?

Lack of nearby office jobs has been one of the bigger reasons that I’ve seen people leave or not consider living in downtown.

[chaglang]

Seems like the lines not intersecting would be a huge miss.

They would have to. You can't really get to KCK from NKC without intersecting the main line (probably at 12th), unless you run it like a trolley boat!



You would take advantage of the NKC and 12th Street analysis that already exists, and probably carry it through the West Bottoms since you'll never pry that I-70 structure away from KDOT.

Well, if it's an express boat... maybe!

[beautyfromashes]

Why would we want to connect with Overland Park? Sure, they get connection to a vibrant DT for entertainment and jobs. What do we get?

Lack of nearby office jobs has been one of the bigger reasons that I’ve seen people leave or not consider living in downtown.

So, just give up on attracting it back to DT and just make it so people can ride the their OP job? Seems like a pretty solid surrender. Plus, I’m not sure what you do when you get to the middle of OP, rent a car to get to the job? They have no real infrastructure to connect to.

[alejandro46]

Why would we want to connect with Overland Park? Sure, they get connection to a vibrant DT for entertainment and jobs. What do we get?

KS would be paying for any expansion on their side, clearly, hence I'll believe it when I see it, and KS would determine where the route goes. Route needs to go along dense areas to pay for it. DT Overland Park has several large apartments and dense commercial areas.

[beautyfromashes]

DT Overland Park has several large apartments and dense commercial areas.

I guess it depends on how you define density. That'd be a long trek through nothing (density-wise) to get there for not much payoff. I'd prefer a bridge crossing to KC's own suburbs to the north, and airport in the future, than trying to make any connection with KS.

[normalthings]

DT Overland Park has several large apartments and dense commercial areas.

I guess it depends on how you define density. That'd be a long trek through nothing (density-wise) to get there for not much payoff. I'd prefer a bridge crossing to KC's own suburbs to the north, and airport in the future, than trying to make any connection with KS.

I would be surprised if a route down 39th to KU Med to downtown OP is not denser than a line to the northern suburbs. If Kansas is willing to pay, why stop them? A starter route to downtown OP could be expanded to College Blvd on dedicated ROW to connect with those jobs.

[beautyfromashes]

If Kansas is willing to pay, why stop them? A starter route to downtown OP could be expanded to College Blvd on dedicated ROW to connect with those jobs.

Why? Pure, unadulterated bitterness. They’ve stolen people and businesses from us for decades now. Why should we let them hitch their gold caboose to our train? And, I don’t want to connect to their College Blvd jobs; I want to steal them! Oh, and College Blvd is not a boulevard. /end rant/

[flyingember]

Let’s get that Linwood Stadiums extension up and going by 2030! Streetcar has dramatically changed the way we as a region view transit. We need to keep going. No reason to stop the party at UMKC.

Most likely scenario -- barring a major regional investment beyond what anyone is expecting -- is BRT to the stadiums (but it might end up being higher spec than what we've built thus far).

What do you think about a NKC-to-downtown-KCK line intersecting with the river-to-UMKC line?

A KCK to NKC line would be super popular for the job access into NKC.

No e-tax on either end which encourages people to use transit to work in the urban core even if it's not in downtown

I could see mirroring the downtown KCK transit center and putting one in downtown NKC and have the northland bus system all meet at it

[alejandro46]

DT Overland Park has several large apartments and dense commercial areas.

I guess it depends on how you define density. That'd be a long trek through nothing (density-wise) to get there for not much payoff. I'd prefer a bridge crossing to KC's own suburbs to the north, and airport in the future, than trying to make any connection with KS.

This is probably right, and generally agree NKC to KCK would be the best next route.

On KU Med, maybe would be better to continue linear layout vs. spur line for ease of riders not having to remember to get off and transfer at a specific stop plus improving 39th via bike lane to KU med would make it reachable.

The distance is far but not extreme. Lets estimate a lower than average cost of $20m per mile due to economies of scale and less utility/prep work than downtown's $25m per mile.
Distances (walking)
Main to Johnson Dr. and Metcalf - 4.9miles ($100m)
Johnson Drive and Metcalf to 80th St. 3 miles ($60m)
80th St. to College Blvd - 4 miles ($80m).

One block from the Overland Park Convention Center, close to Sprint HQ, Black and Veatch, Corporate Woods, etc. that would be pretty easy to get to via mobility lane upgrades (scooter/bike). Also note, I don't live in JoCo and no love lost for that area from me.

[DaveKCMO]

Do not assume streetcar construction will cost anything less than what we're paying right now, which is $100m per mile.

[beautyfromashes]

Do not assume streetcar construction will cost anything less than what we're paying right now, which is $100m per mile.

Interesting. I would have assumed that construction would be quicker (and thus cheaper) since you have a workforce that has done streetcar construction before. I assume with the starter line there was some learning that had to happen since KC construction crews had never bent a rail or installed a crossover exchange.

[flyingember]

The distance is far but not extreme. Lets estimate a lower than average cost of $20m per mile due to economies of scale and less utility/prep work than downtown's $25m per mile.

And on top of Dave's point, the starter line was $102 million for 2.2 miles, or $46 million per mile and a large portion is singletrack.

The expansion is $105 million per mile 8 years later (2014 to 2022)
That's 10% inflation every year.

So estimating 8% inflation with a 2030 construction start $195 million per mile could be realistic.

Main to Johnson Dr. and Metcalf - 4.9miles ($1 billion)
Johnson Drive and Metcalf to 80th St. 3 miles ($575 million)
80th St. to College Blvd - 4 miles ($775 million).

That could a $2.3 billion list of projects in 2030 and that might be low.

Houston has two planned expansions at $130 million per mile, maybe funded?
Charlotte's northern expansion was $118 million per in 2017

Even 5% inflation on $130 is still $192 million. 8% inflation $130 becomes $240 million per mile inflated from 2022 to 2030

[DaveKCMO]

Do not assume streetcar construction will cost anything less than what we're paying right now, which is $100m per mile.

Interesting. I would have assumed that construction would be quicker (and thus cheaper) since you have a workforce that has done streetcar construction before. I assume with the starter line there was some learning that had to happen since KC construction crews had never bent a rail or installed a crossover exchange.

You would never hire an inexperienced team to lay embedded rail. Those resources were not from KC and basically travel from job to job (and they will come back to KC when that time comes). Lots of other things like concrete, shelters, and electrical were done by local and DBE firms. Worth reminding everyone that you pretty much can't express local preference with federally funded transit projects.

[normalthings]

The distance is far but not extreme. Lets estimate a lower than average cost of $20m per mile due to economies of scale and less utility/prep work than downtown's $25m per mile.

And on top of Dave's point, the starter line was $102 million for 2.2 miles, or $46 million per mile and a large portion is singletrack.

The expansion is $105 million per mile 8 years later (2014 to 2022)
That's 10% inflation every year.

So estimating 8% inflation with a 2030 construction start $195 million per mile could be realistic.

Main to Johnson Dr. and Metcalf - 4.9miles ($1 billion)
Johnson Drive and Metcalf to 80th St. 3 miles ($575 million)
80th St. to College Blvd - 4 miles ($775 million).

That could a $2.3 billion list of projects in 2030 and that might be low.

Houston has two planned expansions at $130 million per mile, maybe funded?
Charlotte's northern expansion was $118 million per in 2017

Even 5% inflation on $130 is still $192 million. 8% inflation $130 becomes $240 million per mile inflated from 2022 to 2030

I can not fathom how it has gotten so expensive. Anyways, a 10% yearly inflation is completly

Just thinking of baseline prices I have seen.

Private ballasted rail costs $3 million to lay * 2 for double track. STL's LRT pricing from 2018 put OCS at something like $10 million per double mile. 2 stations per mile at $1 million each. $ 2 million per mile of repaved roads and another 2 for sewer replacement. Maybe include 1 $8million vehicle per mile of double track. You then have management and design fees, etc (I wont guess).

That has you at $32 million a mile w/o design and gc fee. FTA requires a 25% contingency brings you to $40 million per mile. Not too far off what it cost us to do the starter line.

Obviously there is a reason that Phase 2 costs so much more but why is it? What has changed? Steel prices don't appear to be far from what they where when phase 1 was built.

https://i.imgur.com/iJCXrJO.png

The last published budget comes in at $280 million with a 7% contingency. The FTA adds another 20% which takes you to $350 million. A 25% contingency effectively reduces the federal match to effectively 35%.

These are some costs that stick out to me. OCS also seems high based on what we and others were expecting just a few years ago.

Temporary Facilities Cost: $16.074 million - $4.57 million per mile.
Engineering Cost: $43.468 million - $13 million per mile.
FTA Contigency: $70 million - $20 million per mile

Engineering cost has to be bloated. Now maybe building in a city street is expensive, but if we were to build in soil at the CCROW there can't be that much engineering work needed. FTA rules are a huge cost driver and something that I hope Biden addresses. FTA contingency + including contingency in financing + all of the environmental studies at needless cost.

https://kcstreetcar.org/wp-content/uplo ... 190329.pdf

[DaveKCMO]

Cost drivers:

- Vehicles (which are highly customized and not a commodity easily compared across projects)
- Engineering consultants (which represents the biggest project line item after vehicles)
- Debt service (which the FTA now requires to include the whole contingency)
- Increasing Buy America requirements (popular with both parties and likely to get another boost from Biden)
- Complexity (turnouts, crossovers, switches, structures -- all 'specialty' track work and treatments that varies greatly between projects)

Commodity costs vary, of course, but are not the biggest driver.

[normalthings]

Cost drivers:

- Vehicles (which are highly customized and not a commodity easily compared across projects)
- Engineering consultants (which represents the biggest project line item after vehicles)
- Debt service (which the FTA now requires to include the whole contingency)
- Increasing Buy America requirements (popular with both parties and likely to get another boost from Biden)
- Complexity (turnouts, crossovers, switches, structures -- all 'specialty' track work and treatments that varies greatly between projects)

Commodity costs vary, of course, but are not the biggest driver.

The vehicle cost has always been one of interest to me. Post-Vietnam the Feds tried to transition the military-industrial complex over into more beneficial fields. IIRC, Boeing and Lockeed started producing a standardized LRV that the government pushed onto cities.

I was still working on my post when you responded it appears. I do have to wonder: Are we over engineering these things?

[beautyfromashes]

You would never hire an inexperienced team to lay embedded rail. Those resources were not from KC and basically travel from job to job (and they will come back to KC when that time comes). Lots of other things like concrete, shelters, and electrical were done by local and DBE firms. Worth reminding everyone that you pretty much can't express local preference with federally funded transit projects.

Will rail construction ever be an internal function? We have city crews build roads and bridges. A crew dedicated to rail infrastructure would self incentivize more rail.

[normalthings]

You would never hire an inexperienced team to lay embedded rail. Those resources were not from KC and basically travel from job to job (and they will come back to KC when that time comes). Lots of other things like concrete, shelters, and electrical were done by local and DBE firms. Worth reminding everyone that you pretty much can't express local preference with federally funded transit projects.

Will rail construction ever be an internal function? We have city crews build roads and bridges. A crew dedicated to rail infrastructure would self incentivize more rail.

The city built the OG airport terminal. Public Works used to actually do stuff. Specializing and complexity makes this hard to do now

[beautyfromashes]

The city built the OG airport terminal. Public Works used to actually do stuff. Specializing and complexity makes this hard to do now

Yeah, we’ve “advanced” to the place where we have to hire people from all over the country to do what was done 100 years ago by men with 4th grade educations.

[KCPowercat]

Can we use the rebuilt i-70 lewis & clark bridge to get over to KCK quickly?