Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

[earthling]

A little surprising vehicles are not more standardized. Would think that would benefit all from manufacturing to costs for operators and ongoing maintenance.

[alejandro46]

Here is where the $25m/mile number comes from:

https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/a ... Cincinnati.

Could be wrong as far as I know. Doesn't that $100m per mile include vehicles, service building expansion, etc though?

[flyingember]

A little surprising vehicles are not more standardized. Would think that would benefit all from manufacturing to costs for operators and ongoing maintenance.

They are standardized to a model and then customized to the environment.


There’s multiple rail gauges. Like Toronto is 65mm wider than what we use. So the entire undercarriage has to be constructed with unique wheel bogies for width

Different electrical specs between countries (50 vs 60hz) and different voltage levels means different electrical systems
Trolley pole vs pantograph is minor but adds to the complexity.

Our track placement and resulting train width was determined by the lane width available. Different curve requirements in neighborhoods can change the length, like not running into a building. This shifts wheel bases, articulated point position and vehicle lengths for differing curves
Houston has two larger front and back segments and a smaller middle segment. KC has three that are more equal.

Different platform heights. The interior of the train and bottom of the doors can shift up or down depending on the platform height.

The position of doors can shift back and forth depending on the seating arrangement
The door placement is also tied to the platform length
The Houston Urbos 3 trains shift their back doors forward and front backwards for level boarding because their front and back end seats are higher up than the rest of the

The cab can change. On the Houston trains the cab is higher up because of the taller end of the train

Vehicle heights could need to adjust, like if going through a historic tunnel

The exterior design can change in tons of minor way, the Urbos 3 in Houston has three daytime lights with one round one in the top center to match their Siemens design, KC’s has two and no top center light.

In the end Houston’s CAF trains are 29100mm and KCs are 23621mm. (The manufacturer gave these numbers). They’re both the same model and are 5.479 meters different in length.

[earthling]

This seems to make most sense for next expansion given likely higher tax base along line compared to other stretches considered assuming TDD tax used to fund. Lots to like about this proposal.

- For the sections that exist within existing TDD, would the TDD tax double for that area?
- Would KCK and NKC likely pursue TDD tax or other ways to fund?
- Would this line pursue free fare?

[Riverite]

This line would help west bottoms immensely, strawberry hill would blow up. If the royals stadium were put in east of grand I would imagine that they would have really healthy figures.

[earthling]

^Every block along the line would eventually blow up, especially if it stays free fare.

[Riverite]

How long would the total system be if that was implemented including the midtown and Berkeley extension?

[DaveKCMO]

- For the sections that exist within existing TDD, would the TDD tax double for that area?
- Would KCK and NKC likely pursue TDD tax or other ways to fund?
- Would this line pursue free fare?

No double dipping. The best case is that there's a regional funding mechanism to cover operations and there are special districts created for the capital cost and debt service.

There's no interest in introducing fares for streetcar. Zero.

I should state that this is just a discussion concept and none of the affected governments have indicated this is their priority or that they would approve to advance it. A KCK segment has never been studied.

[beautyfromashes]

I know the discussion has always been bridging the Missouri into NKC and then eventually on to KCI. Wouldn’t connecting through KCK and then up to KCI be better? You’d get to states pushing for national funds and Kansas would definitely have an interest in both connecting to KCMO and to the airport. What’s the advantage of the NKC route?

[DaveKCMO]

KCI is way too far, through too-low-density land use, less than a third of KCI users are from the urban core (thus requiring transfers), and airports are not enough of a driver of daily trips (compared to typical urban development). That route has also been looked at in the past (as light rail) and it's unlikely to garner federal funds. Just getting to Vivion and North Oak was problematic when it comes to federal funds.

NKC is willing, making good land use decisions, and relatively close to the starter line. Same with KCK, but to a lesser degree. A 12th Street alignment was studied and is already a key transit corridor through downtown. West Bottoms has room to grow and is already heating up.

[earthling]

Will be interesting to see how KCK interest plays out. Strawberry Hill residents might become concerned about the bad kind of gentrification, perfectly functional old buildings/homes torn down for condos, etc. Might be less of a concern if line shifted North into State Ave or Wash Blvd.

[WoodDraw]

For kci they should do an expensive bus. Europe does this in a lot of cities. It costs about $30 and typically has three stops or so.

Nkc, River market, Union station, and plaza.

[Riverite]

For kci they should do an expensive bus. Europe does this in a lot of cities. It costs about $30 and typically has three stops or so.

Nkc, River market, Union station, and plaza.

Or just get the hotels to sponsor a free bus

[WoodDraw]

For kci they should do an expensive bus. Europe does this in a lot of cities. It costs about $30 and typically has three stops or so.

Nkc, River market, Union station, and plaza.

Or just get the hotels to sponsor a free bus

They won’t do it because they want it to stop at their hotel.

It has to be quick and every hotel will want a stop at each hotel from the plaza through the airport.

I might even take out the River market stop.

[DaveKCMO]

For kci they should do an expensive bus. Europe does this in a lot of cities. It costs about $30 and typically has three stops or so.

Nkc, River market, Union station, and plaza.

That's exactly the recommendation, once we have a source of revenue to fund it. Add a JoCo and East Jack line and you're set. Unique branded coaches like LA's FlyAway service.

[Critical_Mass]

FlyKC

[ToDactivist]

For kci they should do an expensive bus. Europe does this in a lot of cities. It costs about $30 and typically has three stops or so.

Nkc, River market, Union station, and plaza.

That's exactly the recommendation, once we have a source of revenue to fund it. Add a JoCo and East Jack line and you're set. Unique branded coaches like LA's FlyAway service.

back to my gas tax argument for funding transit...no one has poked a hole in this yet other than "lengthy and complex". A great first step from multiple points of origin. Light rail option is also too expensive given the distance, stops and cost. Commuter rail ultimately the solution but still pricey. Dont know if rail can be pealed up Union Chapel Rd from river or not. Oh well, back to busses.

[normalthings]

For kci they should do an expensive bus. Europe does this in a lot of cities. It costs about $30 and typically has three stops or so.

Nkc, River market, Union station, and plaza.

That's exactly the recommendation, once we have a source of revenue to fund it. Add a JoCo and East Jack line and you're set. Unique branded coaches like LA's FlyAway service.

back to my gas tax argument for funding transit...no one has poked a hole in this yet other than "lengthy and complex". A great first step from multiple points of origin. Light rail option is also too expensive given the distance, stops and cost. Commuter rail ultimately the solution but still pricey. Dont know if rail can be pealed up Union Chapel Rd from river or not. Oh well, back to busses.

The Missouri Legislature would have to clarify the meaning of highway to include rail transit, Colorado managed to do that

[ToDactivist]

That's exactly the recommendation, once we have a source of revenue to fund it. Add a JoCo and East Jack line and you're set. Unique branded coaches like LA's FlyAway service.

back to my gas tax argument for funding transit...no one has poked a hole in this yet other than "lengthy and complex". A great first step from multiple points of origin. Light rail option is also too expensive given the distance, stops and cost. Commuter rail ultimately the solution but still pricey. Dont know if rail can be pealed up Union Chapel Rd from river or not. Oh well, back to busses.

The Missouri Legislature would have to clarify the meaning of highway to include rail transit, Colorado managed to do that

Yes, one step. change is not impossible. MO gas tax (overall) is lowest in the US! Granted this is supposed to be a logistics hub but it is even without artificially low (subsidized) fuel costs - if that was the reason. but lowest? then 0 as in zero diversion $ to transit in the already lowest fuel tax. KS for instance yields ~$7M/yr in diversion from their tax. FL yields a whopping $343M/yr! Change is not impossible.

[flyingember]

For kci they should do an expensive bus. Europe does this in a lot of cities. It costs about $30 and typically has three stops or so.

Nkc, River market, Union station, and plaza.

That's exactly the recommendation, once we have a source of revenue to fund it. Add a JoCo and East Jack line and you're set. Unique branded coaches like LA's FlyAway service.

back to my gas tax argument for funding transit...no one has poked a hole in this yet other than "lengthy and complex". A great first step from multiple points of origin. Light rail option is also too expensive given the distance, stops and cost. Commuter rail ultimately the solution but still pricey. Dont know if rail can be pealed up Union Chapel Rd from river or not. Oh well, back to busses.

It's the huge gap from Zona Rosa that is always the hard part about rail to the airport. I bet every idea has been looked at a bunch of times.

It's why I always pictured an airport train also being a reverse commuter line to the industrial area off Ambassador too. Even if it's a littler slower, for a tax to pass an expensive rail line it needs to be more kitchen sink than express. Maybe it needs to be one big rail line from Olathe to the airport. To bypass the rail yards that no one seems to want to give access to, it switches to SW Tfwy on one end and follows Main through downtown through to NKC. Operations can hold the streetcar to let a commuter train get in front that has limited stops downtown.

For an express bus, bundle it into a virtual HOV express lane between Platte City and just before 169, I-29 is six lanes for a large stretch and could support one. HOV at peak, everyone use off peak. Don't need walls, just camera enforcement.