Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Transportation topics in KC

What route should the third phase of streetcar expansion follow?

Linwood: Main to Michigan(71 Highway)
11
10%
Country Club ROW: UMKC to Brookside/Waldo
24
22%
Country Club ROW: UMKC through Brookside/Waldo to Prospect
14
13%
Linwood: Main to Emanuel Cleaver 2
13
12%
City/County Wide Rail Project
40
36%
Other
9
8%
 
Total votes: 111

flyingember
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

WoodDraw wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:17 pm How is building rail cheaper than hiring drivers?
It can be.

A bus driver costs about $20/hour. Let's assume a train driver is paid the same for comparison purposes.
We want to move 120-150 riders every 15 minutes across a four mile distance.

We know the train will cost about $300 million right now. A train lasts roughly 3x as long as a bus if I remember right and costs $4.5 million or so. We need six trains with extras = $27 million
Each bus lasts about 12 years and costs $1 million or so. x3 for the same service So we need $54 million worth of busses to hold the same number of people as the train in the same time period. (35 or 36 years)

Say we have 112 hours of operational service to cover. So that's four drivers at once for 448 hours of coverage with the train per week
With the bus we need 3x the drivers, so that's 1344 hours of coverage with the bus per week

I gave 3% raises annually
the labor cost for the train is $1.179 billion dollars
The labor cost for the bus is $3.537 billion dollars

For a total cost over 35 years
Train at 150 people: $1,506 billion
Bus at 120 people: $3,591 billion.

I left out the cost of maintenance, benefits, electricity in the equation but maintaining more busses comes with a larger cost of course.
The problem is the up front capital costs of the train is so high but the cost of labor for the same service level is so much higher.


Now, there's larger busses that hold more people but trains scale up to much bigger numbers
For close to the same cost across 35 years we can run a train that holds 300 people.
London spent a fortune building crossrail with 1500 person trains because no matter where you count from there's always a point where rail is cheaper for the same time if the ridership is bigger than the smallest train.
Last edited by flyingember on Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by WoodDraw »

I don't at all accept your math or premise here, but I respect you giving it a good go
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

WoodDraw wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:34 pm I don't at all accept your math or premise here, but I respect you giving it a good go
I took my bus driver pay rate from the KCATA job posting
the cost to lay rail is from the UMKC extension cost
the bus lifespan came from the ATA replacement cycle of 10-15 years
the train lifespan from a streetcar study document of about triple the bus lifespan
my hours of coverage is from the streetcar website
the bus capacity is 40 and the train capacity is 150
and needing 3x drivers to mimic a train is 3 * 40 = 120

at this point if you don't accept my math you're not accepting our current transit system as existing.

I double checked and I got my bus cost off by half a million but on the scale of $2 billion that's subtracting about $25 million and doesn't change the final assessment.

Busses are far easier to start up but they cost way more in the long run in a successful system.
For a low use route they're a fine choice.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by WoodDraw »

I can't believe you are arguing it's cheaper to run rail than bus. Again, I respect
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

I'll put it another way.

The cost is roughly the same for triple the seats with the 150 person train at the same service frequency. Go above the 1/3 point of available seats with a bus line for the same length of service and the train is cheaper

It's why you build a train where we need (or want) more capacity and a bus where we don't.
Few to zero bus line runs at 1/3 capacity of the train, they're mostly well below that.

The streetcar is dramatically cheaper because it has the ridership.
It's why going across UMKC to Troost is smarter than going down the Trolley Trail. It has the ridership and ridership potential (bus transfers) to be worth building compared to the cheaper Trolley Trail. Because an empty train isn't better than Main Max in Brookside
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

How are you going to get to Troost from UMKC without going to 63rd via Brookside Blvd or Country Club ROW
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by dukuboy1 »

i would think buses are far more expensive than train given the fuel costs, and costs to maintain an internal combustion engine vs. that of an electric powered vehicle. Maybe cost to maintain the rail and system that brings power to the train is more expensive but I could not see it being more costly per mile than buses. Buses are cheaper to start up as they are more "plug & play". But I would think that long term buses would be more expensive just in fuel costs alone. Fuel typically does not go down in price over time. Electricity could given new technologies to generate it being cheaper. The only way fuel would go down is because demand drops as everyone starts using electric cars and transportation more.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

dukuboy1 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:39 pm i would think buses are far more expensive than train given the fuel costs, and costs to maintain an internal combustion engine vs. that of an electric powered vehicle. Maybe cost to maintain the rail and system that brings power to the train is more expensive but I could not see it being more costly per mile than buses. Buses are cheaper to start up as they are more "plug & play". But I would think that long term buses would be more expensive just in fuel costs alone. Fuel typically does not go down in price over time. Electricity could given new technologies to generate it being cheaper. The only way fuel would go down is because demand drops as everyone starts using electric cars and transportation more.
Think we are at the point where the next big max line will be electric
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by dukuboy1 »

electric buses would be a different animal for sure compared to gas driven buses
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

I deleted posts that were off topic. Keep it clean and respectful, kids.
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by AlkaliAxel »

DaveKCMO wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:22 pm I deleted posts that were off topic. Keep it clean and respectful, kids.
Thank you Dave.
Last edited by AlkaliAxel on Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by AlkaliAxel »

So the current streetcar we’re using can’t fit/work on real train tracks, right?
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:06 pm So the current streetcar we’re using can’t fit/work on real train tracks, right?
The short answer is "no". Don't @ me, pedants.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

dukuboy1 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:39 pm i would think buses are far more expensive than train given the fuel costs, and costs to maintain an internal combustion engine vs. that of an electric powered vehicle. Maybe cost to maintain the rail and system that brings power to the train is more expensive but I could not see it being more costly per mile than buses. Buses are cheaper to start up as they are more "plug & play". But I would think that long term buses would be more expensive just in fuel costs alone. Fuel typically does not go down in price over time. Electricity could given new technologies to generate it being cheaper. The only way fuel would go down is because demand drops as everyone starts using electric cars and transportation more.
Not sure I would count on electricity cost staying low for either bus or train.

It’s not clear exactly how much power is needed but one I can find useful numbers for is in the range of 375 gigawatts daily nationwide to replace 200 million cars. (12kw per day per car, if you picture commercial vehicles in the mix that could be low) That’s a littler under 20% of current national power generation of 1110 gigawatts.

Texas stressed it’s entire state generating capacity this summer from high heat. Imagine adding tens of millions of gigawatts of car charging to the mix.
The state has 1968 daily gigawatts of capacity
22 million cars in that state is 264 gigawatts of daily charging capacity needed. So that’s >10% of total capacity. Even at < half building 100 gigawatts of daily capacity is a huge undertaking. The largest wind farm in the US is 0.7gigawatts

I would expect big commercial users with fleets (ex. UPS) start spending money generating their own power in the 2030s.

The longer we stick with gas the slower electrical prices will go up.

We just can’t afford to electrify vehicles en mass without the up front grid improvements
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by dukuboy1 »

Yes we need grid improvements for sure. Those improvements will increase capacity along with efficiency, which could stabilize costs. However new technologies to generate electricity are being researched and some in place. The ability to generate more power at similar costs does exist and can be improved upon for the future. Costs for fossil fuels will not benefit on the same level and continue to go up
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

https://youtu.be/hwP6kNIDg30


I want to be able to reenact this while riding a streetcar to the 2026 World Cup at arrowhead.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

normalthings wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:40 am https://youtu.be/hwP6kNIDg30


I want to be able to reenact this while riding a streetcar to the 2026 World Cup at arrowhead.
I bet this company would be willing

http://www.kcfuntours.com/
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

Evergy has requested an off-peak transit rate that will only apply to buses, so that seems relevant to the conversation.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

DaveKCMO wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:01 pm Evergy has requested an off-peak transit rate that will only apply to buses, so that seems relevant to the conversation.
Interesting, a bus could charge off hours while a train uses electricity constantly.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

normalthings wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:14 pm How are you going to get to Troost from UMKC without going to 63rd via Brookside Blvd or Country Club ROW
You mimic the Riverfront line extension. The train travels south on Brookside to UMKC stop and doubles back and turns to MLK

This provides a stop at Rockhill, 4 blocks away. It's nicely positioned for northern UMKC and the two office buildings there and the first Troost stop can be right at Rockhurst at 53rd. End no closer than 63rd/Prospect. This ending provides a transfer point for busses on US 71 and connects to Prospect MAX and Troost MAX directly to midtown with one transfer, something that doesn't exist today. The ridership gains for the streetcar could be notable.

3.3 miles of track and it puts most of it on the east side.
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