Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

[WoodDraw]

Lol I love the people that try to argue the streetcar isn’t slow as fuck. I take it almost every day and if you don’t time it right or if you’re not going end to end it’s faster to walk.

Again today I walked outside and it got stopped at the stop light just to sit there for minutes and roll through to stop and sit at a green light.

This is a real thing that happens and no one will fix.Ask people and they blame public works.

[AlkaliAxel]

I love the streetcar more than most...but the only thing bad about it right now are the wait times at the stops. It's usually takes way too long to wait for it to come to your stop.

The last several times I've used it, people are electing to just walk from Union Station to downtown or vice versa *and beating the streetcar there* before it even arrives and makes it way down the route. I even tried it myself instead of waiting for the streetcar to come, and I beat it there on the walk to Union Station instead of waiting for it.

They probably need another car added to the line, because I'm seeing way too many people choosing to just skip out on it. I'm sure many are more apt to drive next time because of that. I'm sure someone will rant about why "I don't understand how transit works" or something but I'm just sharing my observation over this year using it.

This is a good example of Selection Bias. It's the same argument someone makes when they don't see anyone use a bike lane so we don't need one or a road needs to be widened because you pick the same 30 minutes of time everyone else wants to be on the road.

Assuming it's always slow, that for a 30 minute one way you wait 20 minutes every time. If you get on the train 14 times a week that's 280 minutes of waiting.
The train operates for 9270 minutes per week.

For those 14 times of waiting you're seeing seeing 2% of service time. So even if it's always unreasonably slow for you it doesn't mean anything needs to be done.
You could just be riding the extremely small part of the week that it's slower than normal.

I just wanted to let you know, you are the reason I wrote the last sentence in my post. It's so obvious even before I clicked "Submit" that you're gonna complain that I even got out ahead of it with my last sentence, but that still wouldn't even stop you, would it?

You just simply couldn't accept my repeated observation as an observation. And as WoodDraw even just said, it's happening.

[normalthings]

City Manager just tweeted Rail to stadiums and airport

“ This is only the beginning of building a @kcstreetcar transit network connecting neighborhoods throughout the region. Across the east side to @GEHAField; west into Kansas and @KUMedCenter; but also northland routes to @KCIAirport. An exciting time for Kansas City!”

https://twitter.com/briandavidplatt/sta ... 6841?s=21

[alejandro46]

City Manager just tweeted Rail to stadiums and airport

“ This is only the beginning of building a @kcstreetcar transit network connecting neighborhoods throughout the region. Across the east side to @GEHAField; west into Kansas and @KUMedCenter; but also northland routes to @KCIAirport. An exciting time for Kansas City!”

https://twitter.com/briandavidplatt/sta ... 6841?s=21

This guy must be reading my posts! I like him. "Light Rail" or whatever you want to call it is overkill for KCMO. BNSF/UP won't play ball. Lets use the Streetcar along center running routes at higher speeds & as a tool to spur TOD. Comparing drive time to streetcar time isn't relevent since driving would almost always win since we built our city around cars.

Main + TSC/KU + NKC

[AlkaliAxel]

Interesting he only name-drops Chiefs stadium and not Royals?

He has to know if streetcar is going there in 10 years it very well may only be “GEHA Field” left there…I’m think that’s why he didn’t say Kauffman?

I still think they’re putting the cart before the horse a bit by declaring future rail to stadium that has a lease up in 2031 and we’re not certain will remain there.

[normalthings]

Interesting he only name-drops Chiefs stadium and not Royals?

He has to know if streetcar is going there in 10 years it very well may only be “GEHA Field” left there…I’m think that’s why he didn’t say Kauffman?

I still think they’re putting the cart before the horse a bit by declaring future rail to stadium that has a lease up in 2031 and we’re not certain will remain there.

He tweeted that he ran out of characters to say royals

[horizons82]

even in the long shot world where both teams leave, having strong transit connections to the core will go a long way to a sustainable walkable redevelopment.

[flyingember]

I just wanted to let you know, you are the reason I wrote the last sentence in my post. It's so obvious even before I clicked "Submit" that you're gonna complain that I even got out ahead of it with my last sentence, but that still wouldn't even stop you, would it?

You just simply couldn't accept my repeated observation as an observation. And as WoodDraw even just said, it's happening.

You said the authority should spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to run more trains based on anecdotes, as if they don’t already know how long every train takes to get from A to B because it’s all tracked in real time.

How it knowing better and demanding change based on what is purely selection bias remotely constructive?
The entire purpose of this site is to ignore anecdotes and build based on long term data.

Things like removing the north loop don’t happen if observations like yours were useful. Someone would come and point out the north loop is needed because they drive on it at 8:15am and it’s always congested then.

Do you know why the stops are slow sometimes? It’s the same reason why freeways get busy. Because you’re riding it when there’s more demand to move across downtown, you’re literally saying the streetcar is so successful that there needs to be more traffic on the road in the form of another train slowing things down when the solution is to remove cars. It’s literally the same reason to remove the north loop. Slower and fewer lanes will make many drivers go elsewhere and traffic will flow better at peak.

[AlkaliAxel]

Interesting he only name-drops Chiefs stadium and not Royals?

He has to know if streetcar is going there in 10 years it very well may only be “GEHA Field” left there…I’m think that’s why he didn’t say Kauffman?

I still think they’re putting the cart before the horse a bit by declaring future rail to stadium that has a lease up in 2031 and we’re not certain will remain there.

He tweeted that he ran out of characters to say royals

I understand that it’s just a tweet and he’s just tweeting this to generate buzz and such, but it really doesn’t make sense to commit to building any rail at all to TSC until there’s a signed lease beyond 2031.

[flyingember]

I understand that it’s just a tweet and he’s just tweeting this to generate buzz and such, but it really doesn’t make sense to commit to building any rail at all to TSC until there’s a signed lease beyond 2031.

The ending at the stadium lines up with the Rock Island into Lee's Summit. If the goal is regional funding thinking how a route benefits a regional goal is important.

And let's say both stadiums move, it's now a line to a major development site. Could construct 6 story tall structures to hold thousands of people with a ready transit stop.

[normalthings]

Feels like the "it doesn't make sense ...stadiums..." keeps getting posted. Arrowhead is the gateway to the suburbs. It has been said multiple times here and on twitter.

[DaveKCMO]

The #2 ridership bus stop in the entire region right now is Blue Ridge Crossing, east of the stadiums, where multiple routes come together. Since much of that is driven by transfer activity, that connection point could move anywhere in that area and replace Blue Ridge Crossing and 31st & Van Brunt (but still pass by those locations).

[AlkaliAxel]

Feels like the "it doesn't make sense ...stadiums..." keeps getting posted. Arrowhead is the gateway to the suburbs. It has been said multiple times here and on twitter.

They wanna do a streetcar all the way to the suburbs and not light rail?

[flyingember]

Feels like the "it doesn't make sense ...stadiums..." keeps getting posted. Arrowhead is the gateway to the suburbs. It has been said multiple times here and on twitter.

They wanna do a streetcar all the way to the suburbs and not light rail?

This is an especially stupid statement you use over and over. The streetcar is light rail. They're not different things The term "KC Streetcar" is branding.

Also, we're currently building "streetcar" all the way to the suburbs and it's perfectly fine. UMKC is on the northern edge of the suburbs.

Mixed in traffic, dedicated lanes, separate row can all be mixed up. There's little reason the train needs to go much about 45mph. At even half mile stop spacing it would barely be at full speed before coming to a stop.

[WoodDraw]

The #2 ridership bus stop in the entire region right now is Blue Ridge Crossing, east of the stadiums, where multiple routes come together. Since much of that is driven by transfer activity, that connection point could move anywhere in that area and replace Blue Ridge Crossing and 31st & Van Brunt (but still pass by those locations).

Doesn't that justify keeping it bus?

I can't figure out what the justification is for running rail unless it's dedicated.


I have no time for mixed traffic suburban rail.

[normalthings]

Feels like the "it doesn't make sense ...stadiums..." keeps getting posted. Arrowhead is the gateway to the suburbs. It has been said multiple times here and on twitter.

They wanna do a streetcar all the way to the suburbs and not light rail?

This is an especially stupid statement you use over and over. The streetcar is light rail. They're not different things The term "KC Streetcar" is branding.

Also, we're currently building "streetcar" all the way to the suburbs and it's perfectly fine. UMKC is on the northern edge of the suburbs.

Mixed in traffic, dedicated lanes, separate row can all be mixed up. There's little reason the train needs to go much about 45mph. At even half mile stop spacing it would barely be at full speed before coming to a stop.

It has also been saif 1,000 times that tram-trains are a thing and that a LRV can run in traffic in the city and on dedicated ROW elsewhere

[flyingember]

Doesn't that justify keeping it bus?

I can't figure out what the justification is for running rail unless it's dedicated.

I have no time for mixed traffic suburban rail.

I think you're missing the topic of induced demand in the equation.
The goal is to induce transit use which means fewer cars on the road which means any form of transit runs faster. Alternatively, it means more density without widening a road to maintain a level of service. (more busses stuck in traffic being less traffic than if they were cars)

But that's not an argument against the bus.

The point the train makes sense is when we roughly need to triple service capacity over the bus.

This is what you need to think about:
The labor cost of triple the drivers, more maintenance staff + the more frequent bus replacement cycle
is it more than?
The up front capital costs of trail transit + it's labor cost


It's that labor cost that's the wildcard. Look at how Dave said it's hard to hire bus drivers right now. So they may need to raise wages to find workers. So adding busses into service becomes less and less economical. A system which holds more riders for less cost will be ahead economically. But only if the demand is there.

[flyingember]

It has also been said 1,000 times that tram-trains are a thing and that a LRV can run in traffic in the city and on dedicated ROW elsewhere

Not even elsewhere. Houston runs the CAF Urbos 3 in dedicated lanes in the city. They also run it in mixed traffic on the same system. That their *light rail* system runs in mixed traffic shows how irrelevant the name is.
We chose mixed traffic for the first few segments, it's as simple as that

[WoodDraw]

How is building rail cheaper than hiring drivers?

[WoodDraw]

They wanna do a streetcar all the way to the suburbs and not light rail?

This is an especially stupid statement you use over and over. The streetcar is light rail. They're not different things The term "KC Streetcar" is branding.

Also, we're currently building "streetcar" all the way to the suburbs and it's perfectly fine. UMKC is on the northern edge of the suburbs.

Mixed in traffic, dedicated lanes, separate row can all be mixed up. There's little reason the train needs to go much about 45mph. At even half mile stop spacing it would barely be at full speed before coming to a stop.

It has also been saif 1,000 times that tram-trains are a thing and that a LRV can run in traffic in the city and on dedicated ROW elsewhere

If they come out with dedicated rov all my objections are gone.

But no one should vote for mixed use