Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

[AlkaliAxel]

Why waste $500 million and 10 years building a streetcar to TSC when we can just move the Royals closer to it and everyone wins

[DaveKCMO]

It's a difference without much distinction. Streetcar is a type of light rail. There would be no reason to treat the systems separately just so you can go slightly faster on a dedicated segment six miles from the Main Street extension.

[flyingember]

Good article on the complexity of the topic of streetcar vs light rail
https://ggwash.org/view/70749/is-that-a ... difference

Again, I think the Stadiums are the most apparent next "Phase 3" Expansion, even before NKC due to it's bridge limitations.

I would expect NKC finds money for it's section years sooner than is found to get to get to the stadiums.

Remember, if KCMO as a city wants to fund and build this route it has to go to a citywide public vote.

[flyingember]

Because right now people only view the streetcar as a purely downtown thing. Once it’s showed how useful it is from going to shop in the Plaza and go all the way downtown and back, that will start to raise some eyebrows and make people see the benefits. That’s quite a bit of distance compared to now.

The Plaza is downtown. It may not be the name of the neighborhood but from the stance of a regional view on transit it's firmly downtown.
That's where your logic falls down.

Airport to Gardner by bus is 49 miles (one transfer). Which counties want to fund more bus service based off how useful it is to go such a long distance?

2 to 6 miles on the scale of a metro area is absolutely nothing. It will still be service for 95% of people to park easier and ride around a small area. I bet a non-trivial number people use it to not pay event rates closer to their destination.

It's not going faster, it will look the same, it goes to similar places slower than driving. It's a nice expansion, I'll use it, but it's more of the same, not a new shiny thing people will think twice about. It will mainly reinforce existing opinions because operationally, it's not changing.

[alejandro46]

Why waste $500 million and 10 years building a streetcar to TSC when we can just move the Royals closer to it and everyone wins

I mean, I laid out the benefits in my last post; as we were discussing it's one of the highest visibilty locations in the city and would help disprove that the rail is not just a tourist toy train or what ever that old arguement was.

If the Royals move to East Village in new stadium, the Chiefs are gonna want something. Offer to Chiefs a mild renovation of Arrowhead and rail. TSC is more of a convenient end point, ideally the East Side corridor would densify even more that it's doing specifically along Troost if there were rail transit.

I want NKC to happen, but they will probably also need a citywide vote again, plus federal and maybe state funding to cross the HOA.

[flyingember]

Why waste $500 million and 10 years building a streetcar to TSC when we can just move the Royals closer to it and everyone wins

I mean, I laid out the benefits in my last post; as we were discussing it's one of the highest visibilty locations in the city and would help disprove that the rail is not just a tourist toy train or what ever that old arguement was.

If the Royals move to East Village in new stadium, the Chiefs are gonna want something. Offer to Chiefs a mild renovation of Arrowhead and rail. TSC is more of a convenient end point, ideally the East Side corridor would densify even more that it's doing specifically along Troost if there were rail transit.

I want NKC to happen, but they will probably also need a citywide vote again, plus federal and maybe state funding to cross the HOA.

If we want to disprove it being for tourists build 2-3 lines into the east side or on Troost and skip the stadium.

The Zoo would be a better destination than the stadiums anyways. It's hovered around 1 million people in several recent years and that line can serve 63rd St and the soccer complex at the same time.

The Royals attendence has been close to 1.5 million but it would be an unnecessary stop for 270 days a year. Most of the possible ridership could be gained by ending at the VA.

Remember, you can't carry tailgating supplies on the train in a crowd so you only really get the ridership for the time before the game the gates are open. At four trains per hour that's maybe 1200 people who could count on it, or about 6% of game attendance in recent years.

Also, needing space for 1000 cars along the streetcar encourages property owners to maintain their parking spaces. So it's counter productive to the goals of the system.

The system needs to be designed to encourage more self-contained use and more bus transfers. It should start replacing 7 day bus service more than anything so the busses and drivers can be reallocated to more bus service, more hours, further out

[AlkaliAxel]

Because right now people only view the streetcar as a purely downtown thing. Once it’s showed how useful it is from going to shop in the Plaza and go all the way downtown and back, that will start to raise some eyebrows and make people see the benefits. That’s quite a bit of distance compared to now.

The Plaza is downtown. It may not be the name of the neighborhood but from the stance of a regional view on transit it's firmly downtown.
That's where your logic falls down.

Airport to Gardner by bus is 49 miles (one transfer). Which counties want to fund more bus service based off how useful it is to go such a long distance?

2 to 6 miles on the scale of a metro area is absolutely nothing. It will still be service for 95% of people to park easier and ride around a small area. I bet a non-trivial number people use it to not pay event rates closer to their destination.

It's not going faster, it will look the same, it goes to similar places slower than driving. It's a nice expansion, I'll use it, but it's more of the same, not a new shiny thing people will think twice about. It will mainly reinforce existing opinions because operationally, it's not changing.

I don't think we're speaking about the same subject. I'm not talking at all about logistics, speeds, buses, or anything like that. This about perception to the masses and changing attitudes. Having the visual perception is everything.

[AlkaliAxel]

Why waste $500 million and 10 years building a streetcar to TSC when we can just move the Royals closer to it and everyone wins

I mean, I laid out the benefits in my last post; as we were discussing it's one of the highest visibilty locations in the city and would help disprove that the rail is not just a tourist toy train or what ever that old arguement was.

If the Royals move to East Village in new stadium, the Chiefs are gonna want something. Offer to Chiefs a mild renovation of Arrowhead and rail. TSC is more of a convenient end point, ideally the East Side corridor would densify even more that it's doing specifically along Troost if there were rail transit.

I want NKC to happen, but they will probably also need a citywide vote again, plus federal and maybe state funding to cross the HOA.

If we want to disprove it being for tourists build 2-3 lines into the east side or on Troost and skip the stadium.

The Zoo would be a better destination than the stadiums anyways. It's hovered around 1 million people in several recent years and that line can serve 63rd St and the soccer complex at the same time.

The Royals attendence has been close to 1.5 million but it would be an unnecessary stop for 270 days a year. Most of the possible ridership could be gained by ending at the VA.

Remember, you can't carry tailgating supplies on the train in a crowd so you only really get the ridership for the time before the game the gates are open. At four trains per hour that's maybe 1200 people who could count on it, or about 6% of game attendance in recent years.

Also, needing space for 1000 cars along the streetcar encourages property owners to maintain their parking spaces. So it's counter productive to the goals of the system.

The system needs to be designed to encourage more self-contained use and more bus transfers. It should start replacing 7 day bus service more than anything so the busses and drivers can be reallocated to more bus service, more hours, further out

I agree, the zoo would be a hell of alot better destination. The Chiefs play 8-10 home games an entire year. The Royals may not even be there much longer.

Now maybe if Arrowhead was in a place that had more of a surroundings it would make sense to send a tram there. But, unlike the Legends, it's nothingness. If TSC were like the Legends then absolutely you could consider that.

[beautyfromashes]

Main Street is now a parking lot in Midtown between 3 and 4 due to traffic being limited to one lane and school pick up lines.

[alejandro46]

I mean, I laid out the benefits in my last post; as we were discussing it's one of the highest visibilty locations in the city and would help disprove that the rail is not just a tourist toy train or what ever that old arguement was.

If the Royals move to East Village in new stadium, the Chiefs are gonna want something. Offer to Chiefs a mild renovation of Arrowhead and rail. TSC is more of a convenient end point, ideally the East Side corridor would densify even more that it's doing specifically along Troost if there were rail transit.

I want NKC to happen, but they will probably also need a citywide vote again, plus federal and maybe state funding to cross the HOA.

If we want to disprove it being for tourists build 2-3 lines into the east side or on Troost and skip the stadium.

The Zoo would be a better destination than the stadiums anyways. It's hovered around 1 million people in several recent years and that line can serve 63rd St and the soccer complex at the same time.

The Royals attendence has been close to 1.5 million but it would be an unnecessary stop for 270 days a year. Most of the possible ridership could be gained by ending at the VA.

Remember, you can't carry tailgating supplies on the train in a crowd so you only really get the ridership for the time before the game the gates are open. At four trains per hour that's maybe 1200 people who could count on it, or about 6% of game attendance in recent years.

Also, needing space for 1000 cars along the streetcar encourages property owners to maintain their parking spaces. So it's counter productive to the goals of the system.

The system needs to be designed to encourage more self-contained use and more bus transfers. It should start replacing 7 day bus service more than anything so the busses and drivers can be reallocated to more bus service, more hours, further out

I agree, the zoo would be a hell of alot better destination. The Chiefs play 8-10 home games an entire year. The Royals may not even be there much longer.

Now maybe if Arrowhead was in a place that had more of a surroundings it would make sense to send a tram there. But, unlike the Legends, it's nothingness. If TSC were like the Legends then absolutely you could consider that.

I think part of the point would be to re-develop the area surrounding TSC. Current hotel situation is terrible, could build a Chiefs village of some kind if the K moves, etc. Sure, there may need to be increased frequency on gamedays, however, TSC would be more of just an end-point and an option for a small number of fans, especially those from out of town without a car or in the future, another stop on a Rock Island expansion. The distance from the VA to TSC is relatively short as well.

[FangKC]

Having a streetcar system that connects several area hospitals and universities will likely provide a certain level of constant ridership, and well as attracting residents in health care fields to live in the city. KU, UMKC, and KCUMB all send residents to work in local hospitals and clinics. Some train at more than one at a time -- meaning they work in the morning at St. Luke's and in the afternoon at Truman Medical Center or Children's Mercy. Being able to live along the line, and also take the streetcar to both of their work assignments would be ideal. Those that have vehicles could leave them at home, or save money not having one at all. Having the Veteran's Hospital, KCUMB, Samuel Rodgers Health Center, Hospital Hill/St. Luke's, and KU Medical Center all linked on a system would provide a lot of benefits and ridership since they are all huge employers.

About 15 percent of Kansas City households don't own a vehicle. I'm guessing many of those live east of Troost. Centering development along lines means that many can choose to live along the lines and be able to access jobs and health care. Many lower-income households can get by without two vehicles. Instead of having two crappy vehicles that break down a lot, they can perhaps afford to have one good vehicle for the household, and one of the adults can take a streetcar to work and home. That is why streetcars are often looked at as a development and density tool in addition to transit. They create denser population corridors where residents can adopt a different lifestyle.

The streetcar would provide them with some security that the line wouldn't change and affect their commute. Since I bought my house, bus routes near my house have completely changed twice -- creating inconvenient routes and often longer rides. Bus routes can change. Streetcar lines provide riders more certainty that they can rent an apartment, or purchase a house, and their route to work won't change and alter their schedule.

[herrfrank]

Having a streetcar system that connects several area hospitals and universities will likely provide a certain level of constant ridership, and well as attracting residents in health care fields to live in the city. KU, UMKC, and KCUMB all send residents to work in local hospitals and clinics. Some train at more than one at a time -- meaning they work in the morning at St. Luke's and in the afternoon at Truman Medical Center or Children's Mercy. Being able to live along the line, and also take the streetcar to both of their work assignments would be ideal. Those that have vehicles could leave them at home, or save money not having one at all. Having the Veteran's Hospital, KCUMB, Samuel Rodgers Health Center, Hospital Hill/St. Luke's, and KU Medical Center all linked on a system would provide a lot of benefits and ridership since they are all huge employers.

About 15 percent of Kansas City households don't own a vehicle. I'm guessing many of those live east of Troost. Centering development along lines means that many can choose to live along the lines and be able to access jobs and health care. Many lower-income households can get by without two vehicles. Instead of having two crappy vehicles that break down a lot, they can perhaps afford to have one good vehicle for the household, and one of the adults can take a streetcar to work and home. That is why streetcars are often looked at as a development and density tool in addition to transit. They create denser population corridors where residents can adopt a different lifestyle.

The streetcar would provide them with some security that the line wouldn't change and affect their commute. Since I bought my house, bus routes near my house have completely changed twice -- creating inconvenient routes and often longer rides. Bus routes can change. Streetcar lines provide riders more certainty that they can rent an apartment, or purchase a house, and their route to work won't change and alter their schedule.

Running a spur from the future Main/ Westport station to State Line Road, perhaps going one block into WYCO (Olathe Avenue?) and turning north to 39th would get a lot of ridership. Bringing the Volker neighborhood and the density of KUMC onto the system -- seems at least as important as Brookside.

If a developer ever actually does something with Westport JHS and Westport HS, the short-line could be extended eastward to Gillham. Or even uphill to Troost!

[AlkaliAxel]

Why did Westport high school shut down?

[Riverite]

Why did Westport high school shut down?

It was closed in 2010 as a way to right size the district. They had to many schools for the number of students.

Westport junior high has already been redeveloped into offices, the high school is under a plan to be turned into apartments

[herrfrank]

^ That is the short answer, and while correct, the machinations of the KCMSD go back decades. Westport High has been one of the district's punching bags since the 1980s. After they demolished Paseo HS, it became their primary gameplaying toy along with Southwest High. See the school district thread for more info.

[kas1]

Running a spur from the future Main/ Westport station to State Line Road, perhaps going one block into WYCO (Olathe Avenue?) and turning north to 39th would get a lot of ridership. Bringing the Volker neighborhood and the density of KUMC onto the system -- seems at least as important as Brookside.

If a developer ever actually does something with Westport JHS and Westport HS, the short-line could be extended eastward to Gillham. Or even uphill to Troost!

I've always thought it would be interesting to do a loop along Main/39th/Rainbow/47th.

Probably a non-starter due to jurisdictional complications, but it would connect a lot of stuff, and some riders would have same-platform transfers on Main to and from downtown.

[alejandro46]

The point of a regional transit system & the discussion in the past thread have been regarding how to get the most high visibility routes to gain mass adoption and approval of a citywide vote for a transit tax including additional bus and streetcar funding. The zoo has not been studied to date, so I can't speak specifically on the feasibilty of that route. It would likely be most feasible to continue along the trolly trail then continue to to the Zoo along 63rd from Brookside connecting Research and then the zoo.

Ideally, we have the money to fund all of our hypothetical routes. Truman is still the best option, despite the limited number of games, depending on if the team(s) want it.
- Lot of out of town visitors. Not so much for Zoo
- Ton of development potential along Linwood. Not as much along Trolly Trail
- Further expansion potential apparent with RIRR. Not apparent potential past Zoo.
- There are major traffic issues getting in and out of the stadiums. I know this hasn't been touched much, and it probably would take some parking revenue away from TSC, but getting in and out of there is a pain in the ass. Having a Chiefs Entertainment district nearby so people could hang out before or after at the stadiums would be a nice bonus for people who don't want to or can't tailgate.

[AlkaliAxel]

The point of a regional transit system & the discussion in the past thread have been regarding how to get the most high visibility routes to gain mass adoption and approval of a citywide vote for a transit tax including additional bus and streetcar funding. The zoo has not been studied to date, so I can't speak specifically on the feasibilty of that route. It would likely be most feasible to continue along the trolly trail then continue to to the Zoo along 63rd from Brookside connecting Research and then the zoo.

Ideally, we have the money to fund all of our hypothetical routes. Truman is still the best option, despite the limited number of games, depending on if the team(s) want it.
- Lot of out of town visitors. Not so much for Zoo
- Ton of development potential along Linwood. Not as much along Trolly Trail
- Further expansion potential apparent with RIRR. Not apparent potential past Zoo.
- There are major traffic issues getting in and out of the stadiums. I know this hasn't been touched much, and it probably would take some parking revenue away from TSC, but getting in and out of there is a pain in the ass. Having a Chiefs Entertainment district nearby so people could hang out before or after at the stadiums would be a nice bonus for people who don't want to or can't tailgate.

Part of the reason I think some of us are against going to Truman is because then it would validate it and force us to "build on it" when we want to move out of there and get better locations for the Royals & Chiefs, or at the minimum the Royals.

Outside of that, I agree to take it down Linwood and down Wornall. Would be amazing to see Wornall built up even more.

[flyingember]

The point of a regional transit system & the discussion in the past thread have been regarding how to get the most high visibility routes to gain mass adoption and approval of a citywide vote for a transit tax including additional bus and streetcar funding. The zoo has not been studied to date, so I can't speak specifically on the feasibilty of that route. It would likely be most feasible to continue along the trolly trail then continue to to the Zoo along 63rd from Brookside connecting Research and then the zoo.

Ideally, we have the money to fund all of our hypothetical routes. Truman is still the best option, despite the limited number of games, depending on if the team(s) want it.
- Lot of out of town visitors. Not so much for Zoo
- Ton of development potential along Linwood. Not as much along Trolly Trail
- Further expansion potential apparent with RIRR. Not apparent potential past Zoo.
- There are major traffic issues getting in and out of the stadiums. I know this hasn't been touched much, and it probably would take some parking revenue away from TSC, but getting in and out of there is a pain in the ass. Having a Chiefs Entertainment district nearby so people could hang out before or after at the stadiums would be a nice bonus for people who don't want to or can't tailgate.

Part of the reason I think some of us are against going to Truman is because then it would validate it and force us to "build on it" when we want to move out of there and get better locations for the Royals & Chiefs, or at the minimum the Royals.

Outside of that, I agree to take it down Linwood and down Wornall. Would be amazing to see Wornall built up even more.

This. The area around the stadium Is a bad spot for redevelopment compared to using existing infrastructure on the east side.

To the stadiums also require a bridge to cross a notable freight route and the large dead gap past Leeds to the stadium.

[dukuboy1]

As we are dreaming pie in the sky ideas so to speak. I think it may be interesting to think of the TSC as rail commuter hub that could serve the Metro. Let's say the Royals move downtown, and the Chiefs stay put. You could create a new use for TSC where you could have rail that would service downtown and be a park and ride facility for the Eastern side of KC, especially suburbs out that way. Where rail would head off to downtown and even into JOCO where a lot of people work. Have a stop for Cerner, maybe something to get Burns & Mac over at 95th & Wornall, and into corporate Woods area. The route into downtown could then use street car to connect with Plaza/UMKC and even look to have connections to Northland routes, airport etc.

But Chiefs could also build a "Chiefs Kingdom" entertainment area where people could go for games. Maybe look to have like parking for tailgating and such for about 50K and have the other 30k or so using this transit. Kind of the best of both worlds. People can still tailgate, and others who do not want to hassle with it can ride the train.

Just a wild idea to see how we could maybe repurpose the TCS if/when the Royals end up downtown.