Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Transportation topics in KC

What route should the third phase of streetcar expansion follow?

Linwood: Main to Michigan(71 Highway)
7
8%
Country Club ROW: UMKC to Brookside/Waldo
20
24%
Country Club ROW: UMKC through Brookside/Waldo to Prospect
12
14%
Linwood: Main to Emanuel Cleaver 2
7
8%
City/County Wide Rail Project
31
37%
Other
6
7%
 
Total votes: 83

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DaveKCMO
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

You want embedded track because it’s more reliable in a climate like ours.

alejandro46
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

This is good news.

As much as I love the 9-hwy at grade proposal, would hate to spend $14m on more roads then have to rip them all up 5-10 years later to install streetcar tracks. Need to have a balance to not needlessly delay a good project while at the same time set us up for a good platform to install tracks in the near future.

Even if the regional streetcar studies didn't result in a regional plan approved by voters, at least now we are thinking hard about development in these areas that are ripe for streetcar expansion in the future (or at least, I hope so).

See Northrail, Independence Avenue.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

It wouldn't be the worst idea for KC and NKC to partner with modot to do major bridge maintenance and lay track at the same time.

The bridge is 33 years old so we're heading to the point modot might be interested in a maintenance project with multiple sources of federal match
The track has a 40 year lifespan, give or take, the bridge might need work again about the time the track needs work

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normalthings
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

More northrail photos:

Image

Image

Image
Last edited by normalthings on Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Chris Stritzel
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Chris Stritzel »

^The Burlington dedicated option seemed like the best idea.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

Chris Stritzel wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:47 pm
^The Burlington dedicated option seemed like the best idea.
Burlington needs real signal priority too. This is one street with plenty of capacity but it's a crawl at peak use. The system will change a light to green while the next block is still 90% full in all three lanes. Off peak it's six lanes of empty concrete and can be just as fast as taking I-35 or 169 into downtown.

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normalthings
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

Austin voters backed a $7 billion transit package funded by property taxes and a huge bond sale for trails, bike lanes, vision zero, and roads. My understanding is that voters were asked to dedicate 8.75 cents of the city's property tax rate to mass transit.

Nashville and now Austin have proposed $1 billion + downtown tunnels. Austin's is expected to cost as much as $2 billion. KC could use the Northloop as a pre-dug transit tunnel in the future.



Trains: 2 light rail lines, an additional commuter line, a downtown transit tunnel for LRT
Bus: 7 BRT Routes

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Image

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DaveKCMO
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

Tom Gerend presented to the city of NKC council tonight on potential for streetcar north of the river: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hn7P5g-0KQ

Image

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normalthings
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

Its a great watch. NKC sounds like they really want this and ready to get the conversation going again. @davekcmo Is there a serious chance that NorthRail is revisited?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

There is an opportunity to align NorthRail expansion with 169 bridge replacement/Hwy 9 at grade/North Loop removal that could fundamentally change and improve Columbus Park, River Market and North Kansas City along a walkable activated Burlington/9 Hwy. I know the City of NKC has historically indicated support. With a more rail friendly Biden admin, it's great to come in with another shovel ready project ready to go get federal funding. Reviewing the North Rail study again, I think the amount of development, both breweries and impending apartments in NKC, helps bolster the previous ratings for development potential. Also, now that Buck ONeil Bridge is being replaced, I wonder if it's better to run center running lines all the way down Burlington due to the underutilization of the road. Not sure what the point of diversion to the rail ROW right after Burlington is.

In the council meeting, NKC asks what next steps are but it's not really clear what Tom was saying as they kind of ran short of time beyond ensuring streetcar is included in master plan. I think firstly, NKC needs to run an updated study and finalize route/costs. Secondly, line up local funding through a TDD of some kind. Third, work with MODOT and submit federal and state funding.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by langosta »

DaveKCMO wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:43 pm
Tom Gerend presented to the city of NKC council tonight on potential for streetcar north of the river: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hn7P5g-0KQ

Image
NKC Rail by 2030?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Major KC Fan »

Hope so if the numbers work!

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by langosta »

Let’s get that Linwood Stadiums extension up and going by 2030! Streetcar has dramatically changed the way we as a region view transit. We need to keep going. No reason to stop the party at UMKC.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

langosta wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:02 pm
Let’s get that Linwood Stadiums extension up and going by 2030! Streetcar has dramatically changed the way we as a region view transit. We need to keep going. No reason to stop the party at UMKC.
Most likely scenario -- barring a major regional investment beyond what anyone is expecting -- is BRT to the stadiums (but it might end up being higher spec than what we've built thus far).

What do you think about a NKC-to-downtown-KCK line intersecting with the river-to-UMKC line?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by langosta »

DaveKCMO wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:05 pm
langosta wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:02 pm
Let’s get that Linwood Stadiums extension up and going by 2030! Streetcar has dramatically changed the way we as a region view transit. We need to keep going. No reason to stop the party at UMKC.
Most likely scenario -- barring a major regional investment beyond what anyone is expecting -- is BRT to the stadiums (but it might end up being higher spec than what we've built thus far).

What do you think about a NKC-to-downtown-KCK line intersecting with the river-to-UMKC line?
Interesting that you all are going that route.

NKC to KCK is interesting. Seems like a lot of $$$$ to cross WB just to end in downtown KCK. Makes sense if the idea is to get Clay and WyCo to take the “trail head” and run with it. Otherwise I’d think NKC - RM - Independence Ave would make more sense.

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chaglang
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by chaglang »

Seems like the lines not intersecting would be a huge miss.

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DaveKCMO
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

chaglang wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:27 pm
Seems like the lines not intersecting would be a huge miss.
They would have to. You can't really get to KCK from NKC without intersecting the main line (probably at 12th), unless you run it like a trolley boat!

Image

You would take advantage of the NKC and 12th Street analysis that already exists, and probably carry it through the West Bottoms since you'll never pry that I-70 structure away from KDOT.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Walker »

DaveKCMO wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:43 pm
chaglang wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:27 pm
Seems like the lines not intersecting would be a huge miss.
They would have to. You can't really get to KCK from NKC without intersecting the main line (probably at 12th), unless you run it like a trolley boat!

Image

You would take advantage of the NKC and 12th Street analysis that already exists, and probably carry it through the West Bottoms since you'll never pry that I-70 structure away from KDOT.
A route that looks something like this? I like the idea of serving Quality Hill + Convention Center + East Village (cough Royals).I did not realize funding was available for this sort of thing

Image

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

Walker wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:52 pm
DaveKCMO wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:43 pm
chaglang wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:27 pm
Seems like the lines not intersecting would be a huge miss.
They would have to. You can't really get to KCK from NKC without intersecting the main line (probably at 12th), unless you run it like a trolley boat!


You would take advantage of the NKC and 12th Street analysis that already exists, and probably carry it through the West Bottoms since you'll never pry that I-70 structure away from KDOT.
A route that looks something like this? I like the idea of serving Quality Hill + Convention Center + East Village (cough Royals).I did not realize funding was available for this sort of thing
Image
Jerry Moran (Sen-KS) congratulates KCStreetcar on successful Phase 2 grant award.

Obviously not much, but good to have support across the state line.

It would be interesting to gauge support/feasibility for streetcar travel to other inner ring suburbs like downtown Mission and Overland Park. Last study I remember was that JoCo commuter rail study from 2004 or something. KCK is most obvious expansion though, but like NKC river crossings will undoubtedly prove expensive. I feel like having two states bidding together works to our advantage. A line from NKC to KCK would be fantastic, I would be interested to see engineering studies done on Central Bridge and up along 7th st. vs. James bridge more direct to downtown route. Central bridge is 4 lane and has the cool double decker under-truss.

Any funding is definitely an issue, and would have to be approved by voters. Either some kind of larger area TDD or citywide assessment I think for a smaller city like NKC or KCK to have local match for this, and hope state(s) kick in money for river crossing and feds invest as well.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by beautyfromashes »

Why would we want to connect with Overland Park? Sure, they get connection to a vibrant DT for entertainment and jobs. What do we get?

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