Streetcar to the riverfront

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normalthings
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by normalthings »

flyingember wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:15 am
They're taking part of the park for development
I haven't heard anything along those lines publicly or privately. As far as I know, no park space will be used for development.
You can talk acres and parcels all you want. Just look at google earth. Basically everything west of the union development will be built out and the land that can be developed east of the Union is about the same. I guess I don't see where you are coming up with all this room. There is not that much room down there between the park and the RR and all the roadway right of ways and these 4 story apartment complexes and their parking lots/garages will fill it up fast.
Westside has 2 development parcels left. One has already been announced as a hotel. The east side has 7 parcels left and iirc zoned for 3 million sqft+. We know that parcel 10 is slated for development into a 4 or 5-floor affordable housing development. Parcel 3 was/is going to be built as 2 ten floor apartment buildings. There you will get ~unit count of Union on less than half the land. That is the goal/hope/dream/plan for the rest of the RF.

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I don't really see the need for the new stop to be added for North City Market.
The current north RM stop is being removed and new bi-directional station north of the intersection of 3 & Grand is being added. 3rd & Grand serves as a transit hub today for buses, cars, bike/scooter, and streetcar and so a station is very much needed. If commuter rail ever lands there as proposed (unlikely in my mind), it will be even more important. I know it's not that far of a walk for able-bodied people but I think trying to make as seamless of an experience as possible for our less-abled neighbors is important. On the financial side of things, KCATA is the grant recipient for the extension and wants to redevelop its large property into a TOD.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by flyingember »

The map with parcel 8, it's on top of part of the park

the current parcel at that spot is much smaller.

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normalthings
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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flyingember wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:51 pm
The map with parcel 8, it's on top of part of the park

the current parcel at that spot is much smaller.
I see what you are saying. That area is the remains of the original riverfront road. Not technically park space, and not used for anything but it has been left to grow wild for so long that I can see why one would think that it was.

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Red is the general area of the old road and blue is the parcel. If you walk down there you can see where they removed the road but kept some of the crosswalks and stuff.

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Yeah, the trail loop is going away too

if you took an average individual, they would say that was part of the park. Not saying they would necessarily be correct, but that would be a reasonable viewpoint.
I imagine most of that can be preserved or rebuilt but we will have to see. At a minimum, it will become a wide sidewalk.
Last edited by normalthings on Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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The trail loop was installed after the road was removed, it's not a sidewalk or original crosswalk

if you took an average individual, they would say that was part of the park. Not saying they would necessarily be correct, but that would be a reasonable viewpoint.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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I really want to like the north extension. But it’s just so shortsighted.

The current and proposed developments are suburban, mid-tier apartment complexes, the likes of which you’d expect in Lenexa, Overland Park or Independence. The riverfront land has so much potential to be a beautiful urban neighborhood with a traditional grid. Think Canary Warf (London), Williamsburg waterfront (Brooklyn), or Christianshavn (Copenhagen). This plan just lacks vision. If St. Charles, MO, put together a good riverfront redevelopment plan, why the hell can’t we?

Most disappointing is this all but puts a nail in the coffin for streetcar ever crossing the river to North Kansas City. Urban Angle had it right. The better plan was to go to Columbus Park then terminate on the Heart of America Bridge with elevator access to the riverfront. This creates double the development opportunities and makes crossing the river in the future easier and much cheaper.

Why are we wetting ourselves about the potential for a renovated Casino? Outside of Las Vegas, casinos are leeches on communities that attract down-on-their luck individuals to waste their limited resources becoming addicted to the fantasy of striking it rich on video poker. This is not economic development. It’s community destruction.

http://urbanangle.net/getting-riverfront-rail-right/

I really hope I’m wrong. But this just seems like such a wasted opportunity on multiple fronts.
Last edited by kcmiz on Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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kcmiz wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:57 pm
I really want to like the north extension. But it’s just so shortsighted.

The current and proposed developments are suburban, mid-tier apartment complexes, the likes of which you’d expect in Lenexa, Overland Park or Independence. The riverfront land has so much potential to be a beautiful urban neighborhood with a traditional grid. Think Canary Warf (London), Williamsburg waterfront (Brooklyn), or Christianshavn (Copenhagen). This plan just lacks vision.

Most disappointing is this all but puts a nail in the coffin for streetcar ever crossing the river to North Kansas City. Urban Angle had it right. The better plan was to go to Columbus Park then terminate on the Heart of America Bridge with elevator access to the riverfront. This creates double the development opportunities and makes crossing the river in the future easier and much cheaper.

Why are we wetting ourselves about the potential for a renovated Casino? Outside of Las Vegas, casinos are leeches on communities that attract down-on-their luck individuals to waste their limited resources becoming addicted to the fantasy of striking it rich on video poker. This is not economic development. It’s community destruction.

http://urbanangle.net/getting-riverfront-rail-right/

I really hope I’m wrong. But this just seems like such a wasted opportunity on multiple fronts.
I understand where you're coming from.

While the potential is there to make the riverfront a dense neighborhood similar to the ones you mentioned, it must be said that Kansas City is not London, Copenhagen, or New York/Brooklyn. The cost to do things of that manner are out of reach for the rents that would come as a result of a development of that scale in KC. In other words, developers couldn't fetch the rents needed to make that style of development possible. Huge incentives could be issued to make a development like that possible, but that comes at a cost for the City of KCMO and services provided by the City.

While the Riverfront may feel suburban in nature now, it will feel more dense and more like a neighborhood when fully developed. The approach that is being taken is wise, at least in my opinion. There will be some retail space. There will be hundreds, if not thousands, of apartments and condos down on the Riverfront, and you'll have office space. All of this was created out of nothing.

The hopeful extension of the Streetcar over the Heart of America bridge could still happen, just if it were done, it would be done as another branch of the Streetcar system. Sometimes a linear approach isn't what's needed, but that's just my opinion. If this option were to be considered, then Columbus Park would benefit greatly, but we'll see. Columbus Park has good bones to become something truly great with or without the Streetcar.

The current extension of the Streetcar to the Riverfront will make this area more of a "car optional" neighborhood. Example, from your apartment in a yet to be developed project somewhere on the Riverfront, you could walk or bike to the Streetcar stop and ride on down to anywhere along the Streetcar route while bringing your bike along to connect you to other areas like West Port, 39th Street, Brookside and more. So you're connected to the City without the need for a car and you can get your exercise in the process. So I see the extension to the Riverfront as a win for connecting the Riverfront to the rest of the core.

As for the casino, I don't really care about casinos no matter where they are. Las Vegas is a disaster waiting to happen.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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I’m not saying you need to build ultra-luxury $1,000+ per sf condos. But put together a plan with a traditional grid and not a winding suburban arterial “boulevard” with “pad” sites.

The success of KC Streetcar largely is its continuous route. If you start branching, you make operations inefficient and confuse riders. Going to Columbus Park and terminating on HOA achieves the same ( and more) than the current plan at a lower cost and leaves northern expansion more likely.
Last edited by kcmiz on Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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Density needs to be upped big time with the extension. It's a waste without it.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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Also, how much life does the viaduct have left? When it needs replacing in 20 years, you’ll have to completely rebuild 80% of the project.

I’m as pro streetcar as they come. But this implementation of going north is half-baked.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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kcmiz wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:44 pm
Also, how much life does the viaduct have left? When it needs replacing in 20 years, you’ll have to completely rebuild 80% of the project.

I’m as pro streetcar as they come. But this implementation of going north is half-baked.
You can repair concrete structures. The other streetcar structures (I-70, Terminal Railway) are that old or older, except for the I-670 crossing which was rebuilt right before streetcar construction started. The Brush Creek crossing is about the same age as the Grand viaduct (90s?).

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by DaveKCMO »

Details presented at KCATA's board meeting today. KCATA is serving as the grant recipient for this extension.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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Port KC will form a Port Improvement District at the riverfront to pay for the extension's O&M. First move in that direction was made today.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by Walker »

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Looks like the hotel had a smaller foot print then the LIH project they are talking about now.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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Some interesting updates
The successful PMC will be asked to provide PMC services for the half-mile Riverfront Extension BUILD grant project, and to provide PMC services under a separate contract amendment for another possible half-mile extension of the streetcar line from the Riverfront station to the I-35 bridge area.
contracts for final design and construction are expected in in the first half of 2021.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by Chris Stritzel »

normalthings wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:49 pm
Some interesting updates
The successful PMC will be asked to provide PMC services for the half-mile Riverfront Extension BUILD grant project, and to provide PMC services under a separate contract amendment for another possible half-mile extension of the streetcar line from the Riverfront station to the I-35 bridge area.
That idea makes sense to be. The Riverfront Park will eventually be built out, so extending the streetcar close to the 35 bridge and the casino would benefit residents and businesses down that way.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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Chris Stritzel wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:59 am
normalthings wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:49 pm
Some interesting updates
The successful PMC will be asked to provide PMC services for the half-mile Riverfront Extension BUILD grant project, and to provide PMC services under a separate contract amendment for another possible half-mile extension of the streetcar line from the Riverfront station to the I-35 bridge area.
That idea makes sense to be. The Riverfront Park will eventually be built out, so extending the streetcar close to the 35 bridge and the casino would benefit residents and businesses down that way.
Getting the design work done all at once to be ready to build quicker. Hopefully we see a park and ride type concept that could be good to alleviate RM parking issues.
Last edited by alejandro46 on Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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its the closest thing we have to a shovel ready project

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by flyingember »

alejandro46 wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:27 am
Getting the design work done all at once to be ready to build more quicker. Hopefully we see a park and ride type concept that could be good to alleviate RM parking issues.
A park and ride that saves half a mile of distance won't get used.

The current river market park and ride is Union Station, that's the distance where it becomes reasonable.
The 7th/Main free parking is great, but it's not used as much as you would hope for the river market

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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Notes: Ballasted rail to be used at the riverfront (yay!). 3rd & Grand to become a double-loaded platform (is it wide enough?).

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