Regional Transit Coordination

[alejandro46]

KCATA proposes Independence Avenue - State Avenue BRT line

https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/kc ... ll-funding

Exciting route

It is looking like OneRide boils down to:

NKC Streetcar
East/Wet BRT/Streetcar
State/Inde BRT
Increased Bus Service

Not what I had hoped but better than nothing.

OneRide is regional planning & funding solution I thought, versus just individual projects. I would not jump to consulsions yet about what the initiative is or isn't yet, we just don't know. It's interesting that certain of these projects are coming forward though, perhaps in anticipation of regional and or federal funding and to gauge public reaction and begin study.

[normalthings]

Exciting route

It is looking like OneRide boils down to:

NKC Streetcar
East/Wet BRT/Streetcar
State/Inde BRT
Increased Bus Service

Not what I had hoped but better than nothing.

OneRide is regional planning & funding solution I thought, versus just individual projects. I would not jump to consulsions yet about what the initiative is or isn't yet, we just don't know. It's interesting that certain of these projects are coming forward though, perhaps in anticipation of regional and or federal funding and to gauge public reaction and begin study.

Regional plan to fund and increase transit service. These are some of the specific, non “regular” bus, projects that are in the border plan.

[DaveKCMO]

I would not jump to consulsions yet about what the initiative is or isn't yet, we just don't know. It's interesting that certain of these projects are coming forward though, perhaps in anticipation of regional and or federal funding and to gauge public reaction and begin study.

This is good advice because none of you know. Feel free to say what your expectations are.

[normalthings]

North south east and west rail

[alejandro46]

I think Normalthings is right that those pieces may be part of the OneRide. However, if this is truely a bi-state regional tax, there has to be more into Kansas. I would expect proposals to run streetcar service further into KS than just KU Med if funding passes.

1. Future route/frequency increase framework proposed
2. Funding ask made to regional voters to cover local match + operation cost - increase existing transit tax & add property tax levy?
3. Feasibility studies initiatied on expansion

[AlkaliAxel]

I think Normalthings is right that those pieces may be part of the OneRide. However, if this is truely a bi-state regional tax, there has to be more into Kansas. I would expect proposals to run streetcar service further into KS than just KU Med if funding passes.

1. Future route/frequency increase framework proposed
2. Funding ask made to regional voters to cover local match + operation cost - increase existing transit tax & add property tax levy?
3. Feasibility studies initiatied on expansion

Where would it go into KS beyond KU Med?

[horizons82]

Something for Metcalf to plaza (either upgrade to BRT or rail/BRT combo) seems like an obvious give to get JoCo on board

[AlkaliAxel]

Something for Metcalf to plaza (either upgrade to BRT or rail/BRT combo) seems like an obvious give to get JoCo on board

I’m still worried that putting rail in our suburbs is just gonna feed sprawl.

[earthling]

^Yeah put another way, potentially slow down contiguous TOD projects within initial city core lines if too many miles of rail added at once. Upside is less parking needed in city if fewer cars coming from burbs.

[FangKC]

The streetcar from Metcalf to downtown would be too slow for most commuters. I don't expect it would take too many cars out of downtown parking lots. Most Metcalf trips would likely be within Johnson County itself and maybe to KU Medical Center.

This is me being cynical, but any streetcar line in Johnson County will only drain investment and potential residents from KCMO. It's NOT in KCMO's long-term interest to have Overland Park and Johnson County build a streetcar line connected to KCMO.

The streetcar line is one of the advantages KCMO has in the development realm. It's one of the best tools it will ever have to rebuild density, population, and tax revenue that were lost to the Kansas side.

Mark my words, if Overland Park puts a streetcar down Metcalf, the majority of investment dollars will go to constructing office, residential and retail there at the expense of Kansas City. Watch it. Van Trust will start building there like crazy and likely give up on the East Village entirely.

This will be especially true because Overland Park will never impose any affordability mandate on new apartments. It will want to attract mostly renters who can pay market-rate rents, and encourage all the lower-income residents to live in KCMO. Overland Park and Johnson County will also never limit subsidies in the way KCMO will.

[AlkaliAxel]

The streetcar from Metcalf to downtown would be too slow for most commuters. I don't expect it would take too many cars out of downtown parking lots. Most Metcalf trips would likely be within Johnson County itself and maybe to KU Medical Center.

This is me being cynical, but any streetcar line in Johnson County will only drain investment and potential residents from KCMO. It's NOT in KCMO's long-term interest to have Overland Park and Johnson County build a streetcar line connected to KCMO.

The streetcar line is one of the advantages KCMO has in the development realm. It's one of the best tools it will ever have to rebuild density, population, and tax revenue that were lost to the Kansas side.

Mark my words, if Overland Park puts a streetcar down Metcalf, the majority of investment dollars will go to constructing office, residential and retail there at the expense of Kansas City. Watch it. Van Trust will start building there like crazy and likely give up on the East Village entirely.

This will be especially true because Overland Park will never impose any affordability mandate on new apartments. It will want to attract mostly renters who can pay market-rate rents, and encourage all the lower-income residents to live in KCMO. Overland Park and Johnson County will also never limit subsidies in the way KCMO will.

100% correct. Hence why I mentioned the worry about sprawl earlier here. I think we need to keep the rail focused on KCMO until we’re on very solid footing.

[normalthings]

It’s not really “sprawl” if it’s building walkable TOD. KC needs access to OP jobs. KC needs OP $$$ and connectivity for a true regional system.

[GRID]

This is me being cynical, but any streetcar line in Johnson County will only drain investment and potential residents from KCMO. It's NOT in KCMO's long-term interest to have Overland Park and Johnson County build a streetcar line connected to KCMO.

Post of the year. If JoCo actually wants to participate in something, it's probably NOT in the best interest of KCMO to be apart of it.

[grovester]

KC won't get anywhere without a metro wide tax.

[FangKC]

... KC needs access to OP jobs. KC needs OP $$$ and connectivity for a true regional system.

It will only contribute to KCMO's demise as the primary economic force in the Metro. Jobs and wealth will continue moving to Overland Park. Overland Park has been replicating downtown Kansas City as the primary job center in the region.

Kansas City does something innovative with a starter streetcar line. OP observes how much investment came flooding into the decrepit city center. It decides that it can't let Kansas City even have that bone.

[earthling]

^Generally agree and have pointed out for years that too much rail at once would likely decrease TOD investment along initial rail lines in city core. OTOH KC's transit metro wide as a whole is worse than many other comparable markets and needs some kind of effective balance that doesn't impact investment interest in core while reducing need for parking in core.

Also need to be careful not to feed the KS/MO polarization. It's too easy to go there and not a good thing, need to think about what's most effective for metro. Rail in city core and BRT from burbs is a good start and then slowly build rail out over decades in an incrementally increasing ring of infill that otherwise avoids fragmented/sporadic commuter sprawl TOD stations along 30+ mile lines.

[horizons82]

Also need to be careful not to feed the KS/MO polarization. It's too easy to go there and not a good thing, need to think about what's most effective for metro. Rail in city core and BRT from burbs is a good start and then slowly build rail out over decades in an incrementally increasing ring of infill that otherwise avoids commuter sprawl stations along 30+ mile lines.

This. Rail isn't the be-all end-all. You could sell JoCo on a BRT line or two. Especially on a road like Metcalf where there's the easements south of 91st St to do dedicated bus lanes.

I'm not sure why some on here think JoCo would vote to tax themselves for regional transit, but then not expect to get something out of it. For better or worse, that something has to be more tangible than "increased midday & weekend frequencies" for the average joe voter.

[AlkaliAxel]

^Generally agree and have pointed out for years that too much rail at once would likely decrease TOD investment along initial rail lines in city core. OTOH KC's transit metro wide as a whole is worse than many other comparable markets and needs some kind of effective balance that doesn't impact investment interest in core while reducing need for parking in core.

Also need to be careful not to feed the KS/MO polarization. It's too easy to go there and not a good thing, need to think about what's most effective for metro. Rail in city core and BRT from burbs is a good start and then slowly build rail out over decades in an incrementally increasing ring of infill that otherwise avoids fragmented/sporadic commuter sprawl TOD stations along 30+ mile lines.

I agree on the polarization issue.

There’s alot of unnecessary and unfair Kansas attacks here, and some people act like they forget their apart of the same metro and system as us. They act like it’s a zero-sum game. I grew up in JoCo Kansas, I think Kansas is a much better state and JoCo is fantastic place to live. Overland Park is consistently rated as the top place in the country to live- why should we be mad about that? That’s a great thing for our metro. That’s also why I was one of the few who supported the Northland getting the soccer fields- a great growing metro needs growing suburbs too.

With that all being said- it does have to be a balance. In this instance, I don’t think it’s in the best interest of the metro for JoCo to acquire streetcar or rail, because we need to position much more growth in our urban core- the suburbs already have plenty enough growth and don’t need anymore from rail. At that point they’d just be sapping from KCMO. This needs to be KCMO’s thing- KCMO needs a differentiator from JoCo so that it can sell itself to companies. If we let JoCo have everything KC has, then they’ll always choose JoCo because it’s cheaper. Like I said earlier in a post, once KCMO has its footing back together where it’s on par or better growth rates than JoCo atleast…then I’d consider it.

The suburbs and JoCo have had their moment- it’s time to focus on the urban core now.

[GRID]

Sorry but screw JoCo. That place and many of its residents is probably the main reason I have no interest in ever moving back to KC. JoCo is a nice suburb because of what it has done and continues to do to KCMO and yet is able to continue to leach off the city for the things it can't just take. Nearly everything out there has come at the expense of KCMO.

Sure, it's part of the metro and should be a part of a more comprehensive regional transit system, but be very careful how much you want to see places like Overland Park develop urban walkable areas. They would only become yet another competitor to KCMO's urban core.

Streetcars belong in the city anyway. I really do not understand this push to have streetcars running all over the metro area. As far as streetcars, KCMO needs to concentrate on what Streetcars are good at. Moving people short distances in urban areas. KCMO needs to build up another 20 miles of streetcars in the central city and stop trying to extend the one line it has to weird far flung destinations.

Use buses and maybe some day LRT for regional extensions. Downtown NKC, KUMED and Brookside are really the only extensions beyond the urban core that make sense for streetcars. Anything that serves the stadiums should be more robust and go much further east. Airport, Village West etc just need proper BRT lines.

Troost, Broadway, Indep Ave, Armour Blvd, etc should have future streetcar lines. Get people to the city using more traditional commuter transit methods and move them around via the street cars. Nobody is going to take a streetcar from the suburbs to the city. That will be such a waste of money. Keep them in the urban core.

[earthling]

^I agree with most of your assessments but time to stop feeding the KS hate. Your continuing toxic hate for KS infecting many threads isn't helping. Especially as a Chastain-like backseat driver no longer living n KC. Need to find ways to make the most of two economic centers unusual for a smallish metro (it's done and likely not going to change, need to get over that), but otherwise agree with you about plan as I mentioned pretty much same thing.