Regional Transit Coordination

Transportation topics in KC
User avatar
beautyfromashes
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7188
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by beautyfromashes »

I can’t imagine regional funding of transit replacing the current funding, especially the streetcar which happens with property and sales tax. Those won’t go away. So,if there is some new funding mechanism (citywide tax?), what do I really get that I don’t have already and am already paying for? I’m inclined to pass, tbh.
User avatar
normalthings
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8018
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by normalthings »

beautyfromashes wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 12:04 am I can’t imagine regional funding of transit replacing the current funding, especially the streetcar which happens with property and sales tax. Those won’t go away. So,if there is some new funding mechanism (citywide tax?), what do I really get that I don’t have already and am already paying for? I’m inclined to pass, tbh.
Wish there was a way to extend 1 cent across the county instead of decreasing the 1 cent in the city to 1/2 cent across the entire county.
User avatar
DaveKCMO
Ambassador
Posts: 20042
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by DaveKCMO »

beautyfromashes wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 12:04 am I can’t imagine regional funding of transit replacing the current funding, especially the streetcar which happens with property and sales tax. Those won’t go away. So,if there is some new funding mechanism (citywide tax?), what do I really get that I don’t have already and am already paying for? I’m inclined to pass, tbh.
The proposed sales tax for Jackson County rail would have offset the downtown streetcar's sales tax. Anything is possible with negotiation.
User avatar
alejandro46
Alameda Tower
Alameda Tower
Posts: 1350
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:24 pm
Location: King in the North(Land)

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by alejandro46 »

I'm excited this is happening, but not to beat the drum am not sure polishing up the old KC Smartmoves plan is enough to get voters to approve additional taxes. Im not entirely sure what big ticket items haven't been completed yet in that plan so I will be interested to see what gets proposed is new items vs. just finishing that implementation.
User avatar
DaveKCMO
Ambassador
Posts: 20042
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by DaveKCMO »

alejandro46 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 9:40 am I'm excited this is happening, but not to beat the drum am not sure polishing up the old KC Smartmoves plan is enough to get voters to approve additional taxes. Im not entirely sure what big ticket items haven't been completed yet in that plan so I will be interested to see what gets proposed is new items vs. just finishing that implementation.
The main unresolved issue from SmartMoves is funding. It presented a lot of options, but this new effort will be to collectively select one or more and act on them. There are a LOT of lines on the SM map that don't even exist as basic bus service today, let alone what we would decide to upgrade to BRT or rail.

The funding question drives every single bit of hand-wringing in this thread: Rail to X, not enough bus service in Y, you've failed at Z. With enough money, we could solve all of those issues so we're left to argue about how we spend $100 million a year when we should be spending 4-5 times that just to get people to jobs (let alone any other trip types).
User avatar
beautyfromashes
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7188
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by beautyfromashes »

DaveKCMO wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 7:41 am
beautyfromashes wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 12:04 am I can’t imagine regional funding of transit replacing the current funding, especially the streetcar which happens with property and sales tax. Those won’t go away. So,if there is some new funding mechanism (citywide tax?), what do I really get that I don’t have already and am already paying for? I’m inclined to pass, tbh.
The proposed sales tax for Jackson County rail would have offset the downtown streetcar's sales tax. Anything is possible with negotiation.
The goal should be one funding mechanism that eliminates all other and should be paid by everyone equally. I understand why we had to make districts to get streetcar built and am happy to pay the tax, but we need to make the statement that all public transportation is the same as we treat our highways and paid by all regardless of location or use. There should be an incentive to live close to the core with density without the financial disincentive attached.
User avatar
alejandro46
Alameda Tower
Alameda Tower
Posts: 1350
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:24 pm
Location: King in the North(Land)

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by alejandro46 »

beautyfromashes wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:34 pm
DaveKCMO wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 7:41 am
beautyfromashes wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 12:04 am I can’t imagine regional funding of transit replacing the current funding, especially the streetcar which happens with property and sales tax. Those won’t go away. So,if there is some new funding mechanism (citywide tax?), what do I really get that I don’t have already and am already paying for? I’m inclined to pass, tbh.
The proposed sales tax for Jackson County rail would have offset the downtown streetcar's sales tax. Anything is possible with negotiation.
The goal should be one funding mechanism that eliminates all other and should be paid by everyone equally. I understand why we had to make districts to get streetcar built and am happy to pay the tax, but we need to make the statement that all public transportation is the same as we treat our highways and paid by all regardless of location or use. There should be an incentive to live close to the core with density without the financial disincentive attached.
Agreed, it would be nice to have one steady local funding source for a set priority list of OPX and expansion projects that we can always use to wrangle that federal match as quickly as possible.
User avatar
DaveKCMO
Ambassador
Posts: 20042
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by DaveKCMO »

User avatar
normalthings
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8018
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by normalthings »

Comments:

- Sign up for info link leads to the wrong page
- Good to see the Greater Chamber support. Wish KCADC got involved too.
- The name is confusing. Hopefully a public campaign is run off a different slogan/name.
- Nov. 2022 midterm election?
WoodDraw
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3348
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:53 pm

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by WoodDraw »

Is there any other entity in the universe better at studying things in phases than transit? Or just studying in general?

It might never get done, but they'll study the fuck out of it for decades.
flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9862
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by flyingember »

normalthings wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 9:50 pm - Nov. 2022 midterm election?
This would doom the plan.

It needs to be on a municipal election where turnout can be driven by efforts around a plan, not people who hate one party getting out to vote for whichever substandard candidate their party picks

WoodDraw wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:15 pm Is there any other entity in the universe better at studying things in phases than transit? Or just studying in general?

It might never get done, but they'll study the fuck out of it for decades.
I'm quite glad to see the text saying it will include existing plans in it's efforts.

It needs a Streetcar style comment map where people can put notes on it. Both online (expansion) and on paper (an early meeting in 2012? did this at Union Station). The online map for streetcar expansion is full of well thought out constructive comments. the ones I disagree with included
flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9862
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by flyingember »

One thing that been long ignored is the core values of the system

Reducing Poverty
Access to Jobs

The goal should be a crazy big aspirational map which just needs funding

1. 100% of neighborhoods in the service area need to have a bus a minimum distance away if they meet a minimum density level or residents are below the poverty line. 100% of jobs centers above a certain jobs density will get service. It can be done, there's a bus to Gardner today
2. use Ride KC Bike to replace delay causing detours and bridge distances. On RideKC Next, look at Prospect Max just south of 75th as a strange decision.
3. BRT for long distance connections instead of sending people down N. Oak, Troost at slower than car traffic. 2+3 together could make shoulder stops on freeways 169, 71 work.
4. promises to maintain the key top tier routes for 20 years without change. The tax would be the same term or longer. The streetcar is permanent and drives development, need to do the same with the bus.
5. bus lanes, reduced parking, higher quality stops as a requirement for better service in all plans. Sell better as the minimum
6. go on record for what it takes to get rail transit on long distance routes. So if Merriam wants commuter rail transit, give them the list of what to
7. more really long single routes and reduce transfers. ex. 35+11 should be one big circle route with clockwise and counterclockwise loops. 201 should be the same service as Main Max right now. 401 and 40 should merge. Frequency changes would be done by turning some percentage of all busses around at a transit center just like Main Max does today into Brookside
User avatar
beautyfromashes
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7188
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by beautyfromashes »

Has anyone studied where a streetcar line to KCK would run? What would it connect to? Property close to the line would increase dramatically and housing prices in KCK right now are relatively cheap.
User avatar
alejandro46
Alameda Tower
Alameda Tower
Posts: 1350
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:24 pm
Location: King in the North(Land)

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by alejandro46 »

flyingember wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 9:06 am One thing that been long ignored is the core values of the system

Reducing Poverty
Access to Jobs

The goal should be a crazy big aspirational map which just needs funding
Generally I agree with this, except the problem is that many of these jobs are actively working AGAINST transit. Having warehouses out in Gardner etc. isn't really an efficient use of our transit system. If we want the bus to be a safety net system, let's not pretend it's something other than that (30 min service, numerous transfers, 3-hours to get between areas not on MAX line).

I think that overall, the goals are clear & understandable. The What (A regional transit service plan) the How (A financial model and strategy) and the Why (“Making the Case”).

I think now that voters have seen the success of the ridership and development along the KC Streetcar line, they will want rail, and as you said, we need to connect the $$ to the project & show the path to get there plus to continue to emphasize how much federal funding we could tap into with a local match. The TDDs passed, but I would indeed be curious to see some polling numbers of people in the burbs for rail/BRT funding.
flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9862
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by flyingember »

alejandro46 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:20 pm
flyingember wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 9:06 am One thing that been long ignored is the core values of the system

Reducing Poverty
Access to Jobs

The goal should be a crazy big aspirational map which just needs funding
Generally I agree with this, except the problem is that many of these jobs are actively working AGAINST transit. Having warehouses out in Gardner etc. isn't really an efficient use of our transit system. If we want the bus to be a safety net system, let's not pretend it's something other than that (30 min service, numerous transfers, 3-hours to get between areas not on MAX line).

I think that overall, the goals are clear & understandable. The What (A regional transit service plan) the How (A financial model and strategy) and the Why (“Making the Case”).

I think now that voters have seen the success of the ridership and development along the KC Streetcar line, they will want rail, and as you said, we need to connect the $$ to the project & show the path to get there plus to continue to emphasize how much federal funding we could tap into with a local match. The TDDs passed, but I would indeed be curious to see some polling numbers of people in the burbs for rail/BRT funding.
I don't disagree with your point and would rather see service to Riverside before Gardner myself. But I was basically quoting the mission of the ATA where it's supposed to be a regional network, not just a dense area urban network. Remember that the ATA is a bi-state entity covering seven counties. So it absolutely should have service in all seven.

Jackson, Cass, Clay, and Platte Counties in Missouri and Johnson, Wyandotte, and Leavenworth Counties in Kansas.

Their mission:
We connect people to opportunities through quality seamless regional transportation for everyone.
I too would like to see polling done, and not just bus riders. I would start in suburban high schools, find out what the next generation of workers would need to ride transit. Because logically, there should be a lot of 13 and 14 year old bus riders. Old enough to go on their own or in small groups and can't drive yet.
User avatar
alejandro46
Alameda Tower
Alameda Tower
Posts: 1350
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:24 pm
Location: King in the North(Land)

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by alejandro46 »

Make regional BT and Rail spines actually usable with high frequency & able to incentivize car-light development and some park and rides. Keep the bus a safety net type system.
flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9862
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by flyingember »

alejandro46 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 4:36 pm Make regional BT and Rail spines actually usable with high frequency & able to incentivize car-light development and some park and rides. Keep the bus a safety net type system.
It absolutely should be a safety net, but a system that only serves the bottom 10-15% is never going to be able to gain the funding needed to expand.

The second and third 20% is who should be primarily served by the system. The top 20% largely won’t ride. The next 20% is heavily the just trains group and has the money to ignore transit except when it’s trendy

So the bus system should be for 60% of the population. The median income is a family averaging $12.9 per hour each so 60% is going to be roughly where $15/hour is for a livable wage.

So the bus or bike share to bridge the gap needs to go into every neighborhood that’s about the median income or lower.

The goal should be to gain 10% of 60% of the population with any redesign
That would be roughly a tripling of current numbers.

With speed inducing system construction like bus/HOV lanes it would be the baseline to increase ridership with a 20 year promise of line maintenance. Not going to convert riders by canceling their route in a few years. It’s going to take time to gain all queue jumps so low ridership means to double down, not cancel
User avatar
alejandro46
Alameda Tower
Alameda Tower
Posts: 1350
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:24 pm
Location: King in the North(Land)

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by alejandro46 »

flyingember wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 7:30 am
alejandro46 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 4:36 pm Make regional BT and Rail spines actually usable with high frequency & able to incentivize car-light development and some park and rides. Keep the bus a safety net type system.
It absolutely should be a safety net, but a system that only serves the bottom 10-15% is never going to be able to gain the funding needed to expand.

The second and third 20% is who should be primarily served by the system. The top 20% largely won’t ride. The next 20% is heavily the just trains group and has the money to ignore transit except when it’s trendy

So the bus system should be for 60% of the population. The median income is a family averaging $12.9 per hour each so 60% is going to be roughly where $15/hour is for a livable wage.

So the bus or bike share to bridge the gap needs to go into every neighborhood that’s about the median income or lower.

The goal should be to gain 10% of 60% of the population with any redesign
That would be roughly a tripling of current numbers.

With speed inducing system construction like bus/HOV lanes it would be the baseline to increase ridership with a 20 year promise of line maintenance. Not going to convert riders by canceling their route in a few years. It’s going to take time to gain all queue jumps so low ridership means to double down, not cancel
I think this is too localized thinking. In Chicago plenty of people ride the bus and El interchangably because they actually work, and finding/giving up parking spaces are a big deal if you streetpark. In KCMO, other than the Max line, I would be curious what the numbers look like of people who HAVE to take the bus versus need to take it (aka no reliable cars). I would say extremely high % have no other option. However, as stated above, where the streetcar has shown great success in KC is as a development tool. Although Troost is definitely a strong real estate market, I don't think most developers are building because of the max. Same w Independence Ave. Maybe this is more a hypothetical, coming from someone who really cares about transit but has not used it a ton apart from Streetcar.
User avatar
normalthings
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8018
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by normalthings »

Image

https://ridekc.org/assets/uploads/docum ... 21_V2.pdf

Materials from the first presentation. Includes lists of committee members.
User avatar
DaveKCMO
Ambassador
Posts: 20042
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by DaveKCMO »

Polling has been done and there’s work to do.
Post Reply