Streetcar Phase 3

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DaveKCMO
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Streetcar Phase 3

Post by DaveKCMO »

6th district has submitted a PIAC request to study the last mile(ish) between the end of the country club right-of-way and the cerner campus. so, i guess we have an official start to phase 3 streetcar.
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

Post by shinatoo »

DaveKCMO wrote:6th district has submitted a PIAC request to study the last mile(ish) between the end of the country club right-of-way and the cerner campus. so, i guess we have an official start to phase 3 streetcar.
Keep it on Wornall all the way to Bannister. They do something on Bannister, BRT or Rail from Ward Parkway shops to Cerner South Campus.
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

Post by flyingember »

A good idea. Another potential commuter connection someday too. The more of those the better.

I would like to see phase 3 planning cover North Oak to Barry, 47th, Broadway, the cross downtown line, Troost, into KCK and similar. Basically, expand in all directions, not just south and east
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

Post by warwickland »

i sound like a debbie downer today, sorry!

a streetcar to the cerner campus???

any talk of a 39th street streetcar?

admittedly im ill informed on streetcar discussions in kansas city. it just feels like the streetcar discussion is encompassing too wide of a geographic area into areas that are far too low of density (population and jobs) to be worth it. streetcars are great for bolstering areas that already have some urban bones, that need a lift in property values and density. i don't get what is going on with some of the kc streetcar routes.

downtown + main to plaza + 39th would be what i would like to see...
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

Face it. Any expansion will be going into an area that is less dense than the area before. And what happened before in KC, if not other cities also, it will encourage development to spread out with the line.
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

Post by warwickland »

Image
http://www.portlandstreetcar.org


portland streetcar map. streetcars connect downtown with next-to-downtown. then connect next-to-downtown and downtown with a-little-further. connect a-little-further with a-little-further later but certainly not with far-away. this is what modern streetcar systems should look like, and build on. i feel like this is the key to success.

definitely dont connect far-away with pretty-far-away. it's really supposed to be about gluing downtown with the adjacent urban core, unless you have a light rail spine. it's bad enough when full-on light rail gets mixed up with being commuter rail.
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

Post by flyingember »

the original streetcar was a success because it went to really far away. one line went to a brand new development way out in the country which became Overland Park.

similarly today, a train line to Second Creek would be hugely intelligent to do. Maybe it would be phase 4 or a commuter line but as a city we can't ignore a 70,000+ person development. we don't have the money to widen 169 hwy, put the parking in so that all these people can work downtown and build a train system. people can be against the 1% modot sales tax, I sure am, but we need an alternative to widening I-35 again or needing a wider Broadway Bridge and more lanes all the way to 435, if it's not approved

the urban goals are perfect for the system

suburban they need to be suburban focused. See the Alewife red line station in Boston for how even a park and ride structure can be smart

these days the run down or heading that way urban core is a circle 4.5 to 5 miles in diameter. look at the age of what's within that circle, the similar demographics, the bus service levels, the school free lunch numbers, etc

Olathe, Belton are 20 miles in a straight line. Lee's Summit, Blue Springs are 17 miles. Liberty, Zona Rosa, Legends are 12 miles.
Ward Parkway Center is 9 miles.

Claycomo with a ton of good paying jobs is via streets, 8.1 miles from N. Oak and 32nd via Vivion
Ward Parkway Center is 3.4 miles from 47th and Main. (both about the same starting distance from downtown) It's a little more than twice the cost to get to a major jobs center.

Sure, that's not a phase 3 destination but to discount it because it's far away is folly.
Last edited by flyingember on Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

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flyingember wrote:the original streetcar was a success because it went to really far away. one line went to a brand new development which became Overland Park.
yes, but also this was also before the advent of expressway systems, expectations of easy commutes, and when the middle class would put up with a slow streetcar ride across a great distance to live beyond the coal smoke of the city, etc. in cities where rapid transit was not subsequently constructed, transit collapsed.

i dont know what second creek is, it appears to be farmland on google.

my opinion - it seems like middle american suburbanites need to be taken by the hand and shown how successfully rail transit can be implemented within an urban core, before they will get on board.

streetcars, specifically, dont make sense to me except for in the most urban areas of a region: inside the plaza/state line/prospect/river.

something like a swift METRA style commuter line on an existing rail ROW - lee's summit to downtown - makes sense to me.
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

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warwickland wrote:yes, but also this was also before the advent of expressway systems, expectations of reasonable commutes, and when the middle class would put up with a slow streetcar ride across a great distance to live beyond the coal smoke of the city, etc. in cities where rapid transit was not subsequently constructed, transit collapsed.
warwickland wrote:.i dont know what second creek is, it appears to be farmland on google.
it's a 70K+ person development that's getting sewers. I believe I saw the city council approved the funding for them

along with finishing Shoal Creek (another 15K people) and Liberty putting S. Liberty Parkway phase 2 for bid (15K in space) it's the development that will change the northland. To put that in perspective, the second biggest city in Jackson County is 115K. Lee's Summit's massive growth was only 60K (to 90K today). Overland Park's 30 year growth was about 100K (to 170K). That's the scope of what's coming in the northland just in three areas. This also excludes along 291 (Liberty North HS) and the MO 45 improvements and near Staley HS. All of which have space for thousands more homes.

my point is the cost to be dismissive of the suburbs is way more than looking there with transit in mind. It's why the NKC streetcar line is critical to do. It's simply not optional for the system to work for the city. We talk about not having money for a train line. Do we have the money for a multi billion dollar interstate widening?

it won't necessarily be surface street lines, no, but northland rail needs to be started on today. Not in 10 years.
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

Post by warwickland »

flyingember wrote:
warwickland wrote:
my point is the cost to be dismissive of the suburbs is way more than looking there with transit in mind. It's why the NKC streetcar line is critical to do. It's simply not optional for the system to work for the city. We talk about not having money for a train line. Do we have the money for a multi billion dollar interstate widening?

it won't necessarily be surface street lines, no, but northland commuter rail needs to be started on today. Not in 10 years. and it will need to be a triangle, I-29, I-35 and 152 parallels.
i certainly don't disagree with much of what you are saying. i'm merely discussing where i feel like streetcars are appropriate, and where they arent. if a streetcar (specifically) gets built along a less-than-appropriate corridor, lax ridership might deplete the regional political will to build any kind of expanded transit system.

if kansas city isn't going to build a light rail system, a few commuter rail lines on existing ROWs into downtown, and a (super easy) way to get around downtown once there (streetcars) seems like the way to go. spending political will and money on building a streetcar line in weird, low density areas to the southeast or anywhere up north seems like a massive waste.

get a couple deep inner core streetcar lines going, and get cracking on full sized commuter rail from lee's summit, independence (or liberty?), but a major focus should be on building up a place to go to that makes sense to get to via transit - from a suburban point of view.
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

Post by mean »

There is nowhere in the northland with the density to justify any kind of rail transit, let alone a streetcar, outside of maybe a small part of NKC. You want a bunch of empty trains that will be decried as a complete disaster and waste of money that will turn huge swaths of people against the idea of rail transit for the next several generations? Run trains up north.
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

Post by flyingember »

I get your point but KC our modern streetcar is a light rail design. our system just has the design decision of not having dedicated row inside downtown and stopping often.

the Siemen's 70 the city didn't get is classified as a light rail vehicle

for what we did get, Houston is buying 39 CAF Urbos 70% low floor vehicles. KC is ordering CAF Urbos 100% low floor vehicles.
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

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mean wrote:There is nowhere in the northland with the density to justify any kind of rail transit, let alone a streetcar, outside of maybe a small part of NKC. You want a bunch of empty trains that will be decried as a complete disaster and waste of money that will turn huge swaths of people against the idea of rail transit for the next several generations? Run trains up north.
you just argued against the country club line

go to page 13 for density. (to be fair this is 2000 data, but I doubt it's hugely different today)
http://cei.umkc.edu/MapArchive/census/D ... gRates.pdf

Chouteau and Gladstone are as dense as Waldo and Brookside

as an aside, page 7 is the best urban place name map I've ever seen
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

Post by DaveKCMO »

the CAF is also classified as light rail (at least by width). it is about the same width/length as the siemens S70 ultrashort used in atlanta and SLC, but longer than what's used in portland, seattle, DC, and tucson.

but the difference between light rail and streetcar is really a question of implementation (single vehicle, mixed traffic, more frequent stops, less extensive OCS) and not the vehicle itself. there's even a lot of debate as to whether mixed traffic is really a defining factor for "streetcars" or "trams" since the US is pretty much the only country doing it (because we just can't seem to take space away from cars).

one of the proposals for linwood is basically a light rail implementation with "semi-dedicated lanes", potentially fewer stops, and restricted traffic movements. it will be interesting to see if residents/stakeholders can wrap their heads around the benefits of that instead of freaking out about traffic impacts (31st street is a block away and would obviously remain free and clear for cars and left turns).
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

Post by smh »

DaveKCMO wrote: one of the proposals for linwood is basically a light rail implementation with "semi-dedicated lanes", potentially fewer stops, and restricted traffic movements. it will be interesting to see if residents/stakeholders can wrap their heads around the benefits of that instead of freaking out about traffic impacts (31st street is a block away and would obviously remain free and clear for cars and left turns).
My opinion remains that this should also be the implementation down Main Street, though I recognize it is unlikely to happen. One the main (har har) drawbacks of the MAX in my opinion is it seems to be constantly behind coming into downtown from Midtown and I'm concerned the streetcar will have the same issue and negative effect on downtown service.
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

Post by mean »

flyingember wrote:
mean wrote:There is nowhere in the northland with the density to justify any kind of rail transit, let alone a streetcar, outside of maybe a small part of NKC. You want a bunch of empty trains that will be decried as a complete disaster and waste of money that will turn huge swaths of people against the idea of rail transit for the next several generations? Run trains up north.
you just argued against the country club line

go to page 13 for density. (to be fair this is 2000 data, but I doubt it's hugely different today)
http://cei.umkc.edu/MapArchive/census/D ... gRates.pdf

Chouteau and Gladstone are as dense as Waldo and Brookside

as an aside, page 7 is the best urban place name map I've ever seen
Correct. Neither Waldo nor Brookside, or for that matter anywhere south of around 51st Street, are ideal candidates for streetcar; but at least there are clusters or "nodes" of density around 63rd and 75th Streets, with destinations people from other parts of the city might have an interest in. I'm not entirely sold on the idea that anywhere that far south needs to be served by rail, but I really don't think anybody's going to hop on a train to visit Diamond Joe's or Subway.

And while I don't think a streetcar to Brookside or Waldo has much hope of spurring increasingly dense development due largely to NIMBYs, I think the chances are better in those places than anywhere up north.
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

Post by flyingember »

for much of the northland I agree, but there's the possibility of it happening. Zona Rosa is *the* definition of mixed use and there's small parts of Shoal Creek being built as dense as the new Columbus Park project.

it doesn't come down to being impossible, just not incentivized or zoned right to get there

you made the case to me for why aside from going up N. Oak to Barry and Antioch to approximately NE 64th that I'm not convinced there aren't better options for the northland than a streetcar. it's not the right system to the airport. it's not the right system to Liberty. The more I think about it the more I think the northland needs a triangle of "commuter" rail, could be light rail in it's own ROW or traditional commuter, with a pair of central spines running in the street

I'd take the same argument south of the river the further out. like Ward Parkway has the width for a train but I don't see how it could work on that street unless it can get south into the Wornall/State Line jobs centers way quicker than a bus. I get the point in serving the Cerner triangle jobs centers but with the same issue of speed. I can drive there quicker than a train could ever get there
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

Post by flyingember »

good background detail on modot traffic numbers

http://www.modot.org/safety/trafficvolumemaps.htm

some numbers are obvious but I wouldn't have guessed that MO 78 (Truman) has more traffic at 435 than US 24 does. so maybe swinging that direction would have merit for Independence service

can also see that US 71 traffic peaks at Brush Creek. doubtless for the people heading to jobs that direction.
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

Post by shaffe »

Completely anecdotal, but today when I drove south on N.Oak from Barry down to Vivion I saw at least a half dozen people waiting at bus stops. Take it FWIW, but I think that northland usage might be more than you think - especially if it's a legitimate option for commuting.
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Re: Streetcar Phase 3

Post by flyingember »

shaffe wrote:Completely anecdotal, but today when I drove south on N.Oak from Barry down to Vivion I saw at least a half dozen people waiting at bus stops. Take it FWIW, but I think that northland usage might be more than you think - especially if it's a legitimate option for commuting.
it varies by time of day but that's about normal. you'll sometimes see 4-6 people at a stop but not usually
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