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normalthings
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by normalthings »

moderne wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:27 pm That is really terrifying. Was anything done to try to counteract this for continued use? Has the new low cost design new bridge taken this problem into account? I know the Army Corps channeling has increased and narrowed the flow, but this is also probably inherent to the site, the deeper channel on the south approaching solid limestone being a reason for a river town being born. What causes the scouring around the caisson when it is not in the deepest part of the channel? How many submerged caissons are in the new bridge design? Would a clear span from bank to bank be safer in the long run(albeit much more expensive)?
Looks like the drilling rigs are moored over the new bridge caisson site.

From MODOT in 2018:

“The center river pier has a large scour hole on all sides and at this point is only embedded in one foot of shale. Scour countermeasures have been suggested at the center river pier to protect against further undermining.”
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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Watch for reports of moth men.....
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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Shamelessly copying this straight from a user from CityData Forum. Thought it was interesting seeing some of the frustrations over KC's seeming inability to capitalize on it's own built environment expressed elsewhere.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/kansas-c ... ystem.html
These are just some close to KC examples of what can be done to make urban recreation a destination and improve the quality of life for residents of not only the central city, but the entire region. All of these examples are extremely popular in their respective areas. I have used all of these (as well as many others across the country). This is just a very small sample using some smaller cities around KC. You can typically find this same stuff in almost every mid to major sized metro area in the united states. Cities are doing this more and more. From Columbus to Memphis to Portland to Dallas. Cities are investing tons of money into this type of infrastructure and residents are taking advantage of it and wanting more. Why is KC so far from implementing this type of infrastructure?

Little Rock has two pedestrian bridges that complete a 17 mile loop on both side of the river near downtown.

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Omaha’s pedestrian only bridge linking over 20 miles of parks and levee trail systems on both side of the river

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Tulsa has parks and trials on both sides of their river and several pedestrian only crossings that create an 11 mile dedicated trail system.

Des Moines also have several pedestrian/cycle bridges that cross the river and create a well developed trail system downtown.

Image

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Again, this is just what some of the smaller cities offer. Never mind what Minneapolis, Seattle, Boston, Denver, DC etc have to offer. With all the rivers around KC combined with the existing park land, KC could and should have something that rivals anything out there. Instead, it might have the worst recreational infrastructure of any metro over half million people. Even OKC has come out of nowhere and built a huge river trails system with bridges etc. OKC? They barely have anything to work with, yet they are making it work.

Image
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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The ASB bridge could however be modified to incorporate a dedicated pedestrian right of way on the bridge. The bridge used to carry a roadway over its top deck. Two lanes passed through the structure and two were on the outside.

Image

It would take some design work to build the trail approaches, but It's totally doable to rebuild a cycle/pedestrian trail across the upper portion of the bridge. It would give people breathtaking views of the river, the other bridges and the downtown skyline.

Memphis is adding pedestrian access to an active railroad bridge for example, so if you really want to make something like this happen, you can. Most of the memphis project was funded by a federal grant. KC has missed out on hundreds of millions in federal money that has gone to other cities for things such as recreation, transit and aviation because the city simply doesn't come up with plans to use it and find local money to help fund projects. For every 5 million dollar grant KC has gotten over the years, cities the size of KC have gotten 100 million to fund light rail projects, bike lane projects, pedestrian bridges, park lids over freeways, airport renovations etc. Anyway, here is the Memphis bridge:

Image

Now, it might be cheaper to just build a brand new pedestrian brige from the ground up (like what Omaha did). The Missouri river is not a huge crossing. Plus it would make even more sense to build a transit/pedestrian bridge to carry the streetcar to NKC.

There is a new streetcar/pedestrian bridge going up in Portland for example.

Image

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But the ASB bridge is an option as well. KC should be looking at all these options. This kind of stuff takes a long time to study, design, fund and build and KC is not really even seriously studying such ideas while most other cities are in various phases on implementation.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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Wonder why Grid didn't post that here too?
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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KCPowercat wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:57 am Wonder why Grid didn't post that here too?
Do you really want to see "another" post like that from me? Didn't think so. 8)

PS, it's really too bad KCMO has so little planned and designed to be shovel ready right now. The city is really going to miss out on a ton of federal grants to get projects like this built quickly in the next few years and it will only distance KC even further from most of the rest of the country.

I really hope people are working overtime to come up with some real plans that can be submitted to the feds for funding. Repurposing the Broadway Bridge or building a new transit/pedestrian structure should be high priority. Either or both would probably get most of their funding if they were at a decent design level and somewhat close to shovel ready.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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GRID wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:51 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:57 am Wonder why Grid didn't post that here too?
PS, it's really too bad KCMO has so little planned and designed to be shovel ready right now. The city is really going to miss out on a ton of federal grants to get projects like this built quickly in the next few years and it will only distance KC even further from most of the rest of the country.
Off the top of my head I can think of these local projects being positioned as “shovel ready” by their backers. Any new stimulus is expected to focus on shovel worthy over shovel ready projects.

NorthLoop removal and Loop Realignment: $500 million to $1 billion+
Southloop Cap: $100-200 million
BAP: $75 million

KU & KU Med Research and Science Facilities: $800 million

KC Streetcar RF 2&3: $25-50 million

Additional funding for an upgraded Broadway Bridge replacement could go under shovel ready as well.
Last edited by normalthings on Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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GRID wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:51 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:57 am Wonder why Grid didn't post that here too?
Do you really want to see "another" post like that from me? Didn't think so. 8)

PS, it's really too bad KCMO has so little planned and designed to be shovel ready right now. The city is really going to miss out on a ton of federal grants to get projects like this built quickly in the next few years and it will only distance KC even further from most of the rest of the country.

I really hope people are working overtime to come up with some real plans that can be submitted to the feds for funding. Repurposing the Broadway Bridge or building a new transit/pedestrian structure should be high priority. Either or both would probably get most of their funding if they were at a decent design level and somewhat close to shovel ready.
That was an educated guess. It was a good summary!
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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Instead, it might have the worst recreational infrastructure of any metro over half million people. Even OKC has come out of nowhere and built a huge river trails system with bridges etc.


And yet.

Equal Play: Kansas City’s parks scores in the country’s top 10

https://fox4kc.com/news/equal-play-kans ... ys-top-10/

Keep in mind that adding this additional recreation infrastructure will also add to the yearly maintenance costs at Parks and Recreation. The City already struggles to maintain existing parks.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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FangKC wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:25 am
Instead, it might have the worst recreational infrastructure of any metro over half million people. Even OKC has come out of nowhere and built a huge river trails system with bridges etc.


And yet.

Equal Play: Kansas City’s parks scores in the country’s top 10

https://fox4kc.com/news/equal-play-kans ... ys-top-10/

Keep in mind that adding this additional recreation infrastructure will also add to the yearly maintenance costs at Parks and Recreation. The City already struggles to maintain existing parks.
So... Fix whatever is causing the city to not have basic recreational infrastructure. I like KC a LOT. It's a very cool and underrated city. But I honestly don't get the appeal with the lack of urban recreation there. Recreation is by far one of the best things about living in a big city and KC really doesn't even compete with most cities.

I guess I don't understand why people don't want it more there and why they don't complain more about the lack of it. The only thing I can think of is the demographics of most of the people that move to urban KCMO. If you are from small town midwest or even suburban KC, then you just don't know what cities are supposed to be like as far as parks, recreation etc.

So I guess you don't miss what you don't know you are missing.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by TheLastGentleman »

FangKC wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:25 am
Instead, it might have the worst recreational infrastructure of any metro over half million people. Even OKC has come out of nowhere and built a huge river trails system with bridges etc.


And yet.

Equal Play: Kansas City’s parks scores in the country’s top 10

https://fox4kc.com/news/equal-play-kans ... ys-top-10/

Keep in mind that adding this additional recreation infrastructure will also add to the yearly maintenance costs at Parks and Recreation. The City already struggles to maintain existing parks.
Fang, you are misrepresenting what the article says. It says KC's parks ranked high for equality, meaning parks are spread fairly evenly across the city's communities, and ranks high for acreage, which just means there's a lot of park space. It says KC's parks overall ranked 20th, and "loses points for access and amenities."

So KC has a lot of parks and they're spread everywhere, but aren't that great.

Here's the report referenced in the article: https://www.tpl.org/city/kansas-city-missouri
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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I was just commenting on the City-Data poster making that comment about the worst park infrastructure, and ironically discovering that FOX 4 headline.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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FangKC wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:52 am I was just commenting on the City-Data poster making that comment about the worst park infrastructure, and ironically discovering that FOX 4 headline.
I saw the story. KCMO has lots of park "land". But it's extremely poorly utilized, maintained and barely used outside a few places like Loose Park. Like TheLastGentleman mentioned, the numbers look good on paper as far as access and acreage but in reality KC just has a lot of grass. And that's just for general parks, not other infrastructure like bike trails, levee trails or just a comprehensive recreational system in general. KC certainly is doing better with things like developing Berkley Park, but it's still literally not even in the same ballpark as just about every other city in the country.

It's just something KC has always lacked. Maybe it's another casualty of a 320 sq mile city with 500,000 people in it, but personally, I think it's a pretty big negative for quality of life in KC.

Again, one of the main reasons to live in a bigger city and pay higher rents is urban recreation and honestly recreation in suburban KC is better than urban KC. Which is also where most of the jobs are in KC. I just think for KC to sustain its urban core population renaissance, it really needs to up its game and go to some other cities where there are always thousands of people outside doing things recreationally.

KC's lack of a real urban bike trail system might be a major reason kids and even adults have nothing better to do there than treat downtown like a giant skate park for scooters.

This is why I'm so passionate about the original plan to replace the Broadway Bridge with another high speed freeway, tear down the old bridge and basically do noting but throw a sidewalk on the new bridge and call it a great plan. KCMO, MOdot, local design firms etc desperately need some new urban planners.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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Really this boils down to Grid likes to bike and we have shit bike infrastructure. Very few clamor here for said bike infrastructure probably due to three things 1) no real density 2) weather 3) hilly af
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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KCPowercat wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:35 am Really this boils down to Grid likes to bike and we have shit bike infrastructure. Very few clamor here for said bike infrastructure probably due to three things 1) no real density 2) weather 3) hilly af
I guess. But KC no worse than MSP, Austin, Cincy, Pittsburgh, DC and most other cities as far as weather and topography. And it's not just biking.

But I digress. Again.... 8)
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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I agree that KC has too much grass called parks and not much to lure people to those places. It's not just lack of bike trails. Many bigger parks don't have enough park shelters, BBQ grill setups and benches, so more people can have gatherings at the same time. Many parks don't even have good tree coverage and some basic landscaping. Some of the newer parks haven't even planted starter trees so there will be shade some day. This discourages residents from having picnics and family gatherings in the summer because who wants to sit out in the blazing sun with no shelter. Many large expanses of grass have no sidewalks through them. Some parks don't even have multiple access points to neighborhoods, and you have to walk a great distance just to reach an entrance.

People will use good neighborhood parks. Concourse Park in the Historic Northeast is very busy in the evenings.

Swope Park does have nice wooded areas, and trails, but Parks and Rec cannot even make this garden attractive. There should be more scrubs and flowers there.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Swope ... 94.5322382

The trees look scraggly in parts of Swope Park. It's not a pleasant park like Tower Grove Park in St. Louis.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0094044 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Swope ... 94.5322382

Tower Grove

https://www.google.com/maps/search/fore ... a=!3m1!1e3
Last edited by FangKC on Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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GRID wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:54 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:35 am Really this boils down to Grid likes to bike and we have shit bike infrastructure. Very few clamor here for said bike infrastructure probably due to three things 1) no real density 2) weather 3) hilly af
I guess. But KC no worse than MSP, Austin, Cincy, Pittsburgh, DC and most other cities as far as weather and topography. And it's not just biking.

But I digress. Again.... 8)
Really? Everytime I'm in any other city I'm so excited how flat it is when out walking. DC seems extremely flat.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by normalthings »

KCPowercat wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:49 pm
GRID wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:54 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:35 am Really this boils down to Grid likes to bike and we have shit bike infrastructure. Very few clamor here for said bike infrastructure probably due to three things 1) no real density 2) weather 3) hilly af
I guess. But KC no worse than MSP, Austin, Cincy, Pittsburgh, DC and most other cities as far as weather and topography. And it's not just biking.

But I digress. Again.... 8)
Really? Everytime I'm in any other city I'm so excited how flat it is when out walking. DC seems extremely flat.
DC is pretty hilly when you get to Georgetown, Crystal City, Arlington, etc.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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normalthings wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:23 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:49 pm
GRID wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:54 pm

I guess. But KC no worse than MSP, Austin, Cincy, Pittsburgh, DC and most other cities as far as weather and topography. And it's not just biking.

But I digress. Again.... 8)
Really? Everytime I'm in any other city I'm so excited how flat it is when out walking. DC seems extremely flat.
DC is pretty hilly when you get to Georgetown, Crystal City, Arlington, etc.
Yeah, DC is not really flat at all. I guess the mall area is pretty flat, but the rest of the city and metro where trails and parks are have tons of hills. Trust me. They kick my ass all the time.

Austin is not flat and yet they have tons of urban recreational infrastructure. MSP is not all that flat in the central city. Portland, Pittsburgh. All I'm saying is KC really does suck when it comes to having big city recreation. Even St Louis at least has Forest Park and has done quite a bit to improve their downtown even though they still have one of the worst too.

Again its' not just bikes. It's just people not in cars in general. Running, biking, playing random sports, just enjoying the city from a parklike setting. If you do go out into DC anywhere along the rivers etc, there are thousands of people out just enjoying the parks. The bike trails are like highways. People just like to be outside. Imagine Mill Creek Park in KC only imagine that everywhere and times 1000. That's DC and is probably a DC that most tourists don't really see. It's definitely something I would have a hard time leaving now. DC is probably above average, but there are very few cities that have fewer people outside doing stuff than KC. It's just reality man. Sorry.

Sad thing is KC is set up perfectly to have recreation that rivals places like Portland and Boston and MSP and Denver and Philly and DC with the rivers and park property they have. But there are always a million excuses as to why KC doesn't have or need such infrastructure.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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FangKC wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:32 pm I agree that KC has too much grass called parks and not much to lure people to those places. It's not just lack of bike trails. Many bigger parks don't have enough park shelters, BBQ grill setups and benches, so more people can have gatherings at the same time. Many parks don't even have good tree coverage and some basic landscaping. Some of the newer parks haven't even planted starter trees so there will be shade some day. This discourages residents from having picnics and family gatherings in the summer because who wants to sit out in the blazing sun with no shelter. Many large expanses of grass have no sidewalks through them. Some parks don't even have multiple access points to neighborhoods, and you have to walk a great distance just to reach an entrance.

People will use good neighborhood parks. Concourse Park in the Historic Northeast is very busy in the evenings.

Swope Park does have nice wooded areas, and trails, but Parks and Rec cannot even make this garden attractive. There should be more scrubs and flowers there.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Swope ... 94.5322382

The trees look scraggly in parts of Swope Park. It's not a pleasant park like Tower Grove Park in St. Louis.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0094044 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Swope ... 94.5322382

Tower Grove

https://www.google.com/maps/search/fore ... a=!3m1!1e3
I forget about Tower Grove Park. That's a nice park. Forest is one of the best big center city parks there is. I have never considered Swope a good "big city" park even though people always say it's one of the biggest in the country. It's more like a forested area on the edge of the city that has some nice attractions like the zoo and starlight. The location of Swope kills it. It's too big actually and surrounded by low density non walkable single family homes on the sides that are developed. Swope functions more like a state park or something not an urban park, but other than the zoo and starlight, there is no real draw to bring people there.

KC is supposed to have this grand well designed and almost famous parks and boulevards system. I do agree that some of KC's boulevards are nice, namely ward parkway and paseo. But by far and large, KCMO's parks system is a really big fail and has been for a very long time now.

KC has one park that could be amazing. That's Penn Valley Park. But it needs probably 50-100 million dollars worth of work to fix what is wrong with it and make it a truly grand "central park" for KCMO. You could tunnel portions of Broadway etc, build a large trails systems, bridges, fountains, add a cheesy attraction for tourists like a wheel etc.

It would require a total rebuild to terraform parts of that park into a single usable park but that is really the only place KC has to have a large urban park. If done right, it could be an incredible place and one of the top destinations to visit for all of metro KC.

Then you would tie the new Penn Valley Park to the Riverfront and Mill Creek, Brush Creek, Loose and Swope and then on to the suburban trails and parks with a network of cyclepaths and greenways. Then KC goes from worst to one of the best.

And don't say it can't be done. KCMO and the suburbs around KC are spending tens of millions on dozens of professional caliber soccer field complexes for some reason which is fine I guess, but if you can do that, you should be able to have a decent parks system too.
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