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shinatoo
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by alejandro46 »

This is veering off topic.

I am excited that the new bridge should both allow some pedestrian/bike access and result in a more accessible exit to Harlem. I really think this area is ripe for some re-development.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by Rabble »

GRID wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:55 pm
FangKC wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:00 pm Please explain what is is a cost benefit to extending the streetcar to municipality of North Kansas City, a city of 4,500 residents? About 20 percent of those are children; 14 percent are above retirement age. Why would that city spend millions to do it? It's more than $6,600 per resident (just to adapt the bridge using the aforementioned figure of $30 million). The cost per resident would actually be higher. How many of those residents are actually going to regularly use it--must less actually approve spending tax money to do it?

I can see merit is there is a broader, achievable plan to extend it further north into the Northland.

However, there are more employees and students (more than 9,100) at KU Medical Center than live in N. Kansas City, so expending the streetcar to Rosedale makes a lot more sense to me. It doesn't require upgrades to bridges. There are also more residents in the Rosedale neighborhood (14,000) of KCK than in N. Kansas City.
Yeah, there is no reason to cross the river with transit unless it's full blown light rail or commuter rail. The ROI is just not there otherwise and it makes no sense to ask little 4500 population NKC to foot much more than a tiny percent of a transit river crossing that should benefit a much larger portion of the Northland's population of 350,000. I still think the Northland (mainly a route to KCI and Liberty) would be best served by a high quality BRT system running on the HOA Bridge. Run coach buses every 30 minutes from the proposed river market transit hub to KCI with a few slip ramps to park and rides along they way (similar to the Flatiron Flyer route in Denver) and you have the best transit connection to KCI possible, way better and way cheaper than rail.

Transit should cross the river at some point by rail, but the northland needs way more people and density for rail. Till then, ASB should be a very good candidate for a recreation crossing. It wouldn't cost near as much to build trail approaches and a trail deck on the bridge. Louisville did it and they needed similar major approach infrastructure like KC would need.

I just cringe every time I hear about running the streetcar to KCI etc. It's not that kind of transit. It would cost so much, move so few and take forever for the few people that did use it to get anywhere. The streetcar is an urban tram. Nothing more. It's a good urban tram system though.

While the ASB does have some big obstacles, I still think that bridge along with possibly repurposing the old Broadway Bridge should be a part of a master plan to make the river a major recreational destination. So many cities have done it and yea, it does cost millions of dollars. But honestly, I think spending 25 million on something like that would do more for the city than adding a half mile or whatever it cost to extend the streetcar to a very lightly populated and car oriented area (even at full build out). Different people have different needs in a city I guess. The extension to the riverfront is okay I guess. It just seems really expensive for what it is and by far the best part of that project is not the streetcar extension, but the dedicated bike bridge IMO.
Mayor Cleaver was partly right when he called light rail touristy frou-frou, but he was wrong about that being an insult. Kansas City needed a large dose of touristy frou-frou and the Streetcar delivered. I also see the ASB bridge as a potential tourist attraction. I visualize the streetcar approaching it at sunset from NKC, rolling through the trusses outlined in lights towards the skyline, with views of the river on both sides, just past the pedestrians and cyclists on the outer walkways. Try to imagine what all this would look like from the Berkley park river walk. Well I think it would look iconic!

NKC may have be small but it is an urban town and the streetcar running up Swift would certainly add to their population and development.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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If Cleaver didn't kill the starter light rail plan and it was built, KC would probably have a decent sized system today (50 miles of true mass transit) and a small streetcar line to compliment it. Instead, KC will likely never see a full blown rail system with more comprehensive regional service. Maybe KC doesn't need it such a transit system, but regardless, that's dead. And so is commuter rail. That's never going to happen either. Not in the next 40 years anyway.

But that's all water under the bridge. KC has built a decent urban tram system. I know I know, it's the same vehicles in Houston bla bla bla, but it's not the same urban infrastructure and right of way that Houston has built, even in the urban core. The streetcar shares lanes with cars, has small single train platforms etc. It would take a near total rebuild to convert it to a light rail system that had lines to suburban areas etc. Streetcars don't even carry as many people as an articulated bus can. The streetcar is more "touristy frou frou" than that light rail plan ever was. It doesn't do anything any different than the buses did, except people in KC (especially suburbanites) just won't ride a bus.

Having said that, it's a great system and I personally think it's worth the investment. Whatever it takes to make people excited about urban KCMO in a metro which had decades of anti urban culture embedded in it. But KC will never have a system like Denver or MSP or Dallas or Phoenix or Charlotte or SLC or Portland etc. It's just not going to happen and at this point, I'm not sure it needs to happen. Also, the KC streetcar is scaled perfect for KC as far as focused urban development.

Build a regional system around the urban tram and a high quality commuter bus lines to KCI, Olathe, Liberty etc is really the way to go in KC.

Some of the comments here about spending money first on infrastructure "instead of a pretty bridge" are right. KC still has a shit ton of crumbling infrastructure all over the city, even in thriving parts of the city. But it's also missing a lot of basic big city infrastructure, mainly recreational. It's sad that the ASB is not being utilized in that way. Again, that would probably bring more people downtown on a daily basis than just about any other current attraction down there. The pretty bridge I was talking about is just part of a bigger package to make the river a destination. But instead, the priority is the same as in 1950. Catering to the people that "don't wish to be downtown" by building more flyover ramps instead.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by flyingember »

Rabble wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:12 pm
Mayor Cleaver was partly right when he called light rail touristy frou-frou, but he was wrong about that being an insult. Kansas City needed a large dose of touristy frou-frou and the Streetcar delivered. I also see the ASB bridge as a potential tourist attraction. I visualize the streetcar approaching it at sunset from NKC, rolling through the trusses outlined in lights towards the skyline, with views of the river on both sides, just past the pedestrians and cyclists on the outer walkways. Try to imagine what all this would look like from the Berkley park river walk. Well I think it would look iconic!

NKC may have be small but it is an urban town and the streetcar running up Swift would certainly add to their population and development.
It wouldn’t be visible on the bridge from the east in Berkley Park. The HOA bridge is in the way from that angle

You can see this for yourself using google street view. The camera is about 8 feet in the air so more of the bridge would be hidden at pedestrian height
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by WoodDraw »

The problem with our streetcar from day one has been sharing it with cars. I hate it but it's the only funding available. What can you do? It still can't even fix light priority.

Who's going to pay for it? Missouri doesn't give a fuck. Cleaver was a historically bad mayor in regards to transportation and I don't even know what he does today other than wait too long for someone to replace him.

I know most of you live in the current streetcar tax area? I'm not going to fund it.

People keep forgetting there is no demand anywhere else and they won't vote for it.

They shouldn't expand public streetcars either unless they get priority and to places of interest. Busses are better. Or if they pay for it.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by flyingember »

GRID wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:22 pm I know I know, it's the same vehicles in Houston bla bla bla, but it's not the same urban infrastructure and right of way that Houston has built, even in the urban core.
Houston started from much less.

There were super blocks without development, next to a train stop, in the 9th year of system operation.

And they did it in the oil HQ city for the country.

It’s not the infrastructure, it’s the political will to build.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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WoodDraw wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:11 pm The problem with our streetcar from day one has been sharing it with cars. I hate it but it's the only funding available. What can you do? It still can't even fix light priority.

Who's going to pay for it? Missouri doesn't give a fuck. Cleaver was a historically bad mayor in regards to transportation and I don't even know what he does today other than wait too long for someone to replace him.

I know most of you live in the current streetcar tax area? I'm not going to fund it.

People keep forgetting there is no demand anywhere else and they won't vote for it.

They shouldn't expand public streetcars either unless they get priority and to places of interest. Busses are better. Or if they pay for it.

5 million riders thought it was good enough. That says more than anything I can in response.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by Rabble »

flyingember wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:08 pm
Rabble wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:12 pm
Mayor Cleaver was partly right when he called light rail touristy frou-frou, but he was wrong about that being an insult. Kansas City needed a large dose of touristy frou-frou and the Streetcar delivered. I also see the ASB bridge as a potential tourist attraction. I visualize the streetcar approaching it at sunset from NKC, rolling through the trusses outlined in lights towards the skyline, with views of the river on both sides, just past the pedestrians and cyclists on the outer walkways. Try to imagine what all this would look like from the Berkley park river walk. Well I think it would look iconic!

NKC may have be small but it is an urban town and the streetcar running up Swift would certainly add to their population and development.
It wouldn’t be visible on the bridge from the east in Berkley Park. The HOA bridge is in the way from that angle

You can see this for yourself using google street view. The camera is about 8 feet in the air so more of the bridge would be hidden at pedestrian height
I've seen for myself, the views from Berkley Park would be some what obstructed but still spectacular.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by Rabble »

alejandro46 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:03 pm This is veering off topic.

I am excited that the new bridge should both allow some pedestrian/bike access and result in a more accessible exit to Harlem. I really think this area is ripe for some re-development.
If the streetcar crossed over the Missouri on the ASB bridge you could have a stop on the levee for the new Harlem apartment buildings.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by WoodDraw »

flyingember wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:25 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:11 pm The problem with our streetcar from day one has been sharing it with cars. I hate it but it's the only funding available. What can you do? It still can't even fix light priority.

Who's going to pay for it? Missouri doesn't give a fuck. Cleaver was a historically bad mayor in regards to transportation and I don't even know what he does today other than wait too long for someone to replace him.

I know most of you live in the current streetcar tax area? I'm not going to fund it.

People keep forgetting there is no demand anywhere else and they won't vote for it.

They shouldn't expand public streetcars either unless they get priority and to places of interest. Busses are better. Or if they pay for it.

5 million riders thought it was good enough. That says more than anything I can in response.
Because it’s free to ride and subsidized by downtown. What would they think if they had to pay?

I like this system. It’s used on the plaza to pay for parking too.

But it has its limits. Rcp can’t fund rail through the entire region, and what works on a starter line won’t work for extensions.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by normalthings »

WoodDraw wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:14 pm
flyingember wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:25 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:11 pm The problem with our streetcar from day one has been sharing it with cars. I hate it but it's the only funding available. What can you do? It still can't even fix light priority.

Who's going to pay for it? Missouri doesn't give a fuck. Cleaver was a historically bad mayor in regards to transportation and I don't even know what he does today other than wait too long for someone to replace him.

I know most of you live in the current streetcar tax area? I'm not going to fund it.

People keep forgetting there is no demand anywhere else and they won't vote for it.

They shouldn't expand public streetcars either unless they get priority and to places of interest. Busses are better. Or if they pay for it.

5 million riders thought it was good enough. That says more than anything I can in response.
Because it’s free to ride and subsidized by downtown. What would they think if they had to pay?

I like this system. It’s used on the plaza to pay for parking too.

But it has its limits. Rcp can’t fund rail through the entire region, and what works on a starter line won’t work for extensions.
A regional rail system would need to be more competitive vs car travel times than the streetcar. STL Metrolink has a max speed of 65-70 mph on entirely dedicated row. The initial 15-20 miles were old urban rail line converted to LRT but they have also built a lot along, below, and above existing road ROW. 50 miles of rails now.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by normalthings »

MoDOT is working on core drilling around 3rd street and along Broadway
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by Midtownkid »

Here is a proposal for a replacement bridge in Seattle. It features mass timber as a material (along with steel). I hope we can get something at least this interesting.

Image

Image

Image

Wood may be too experimental, but I am more attracted to the overall shape of the bridge. It would give a slight nod to the current design of the Broadway Bridge. I think the current Broadway Bridge has a beautiful shape.


https://www.archpaper.com/2020/10/bh-ar ... and-steel/
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by GRID »

I was told everybody there is happy with a flat girder bridge with a bunch of flyover ramps attached to it. That's what downtown needs, not a pretty bridge. Especially one that has light rail on it.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by KCPowercat »

If my option is that bridge with light rail I choose that option.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by normalthings »

GRID wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:50 pm I was told everybody there is happy with a flat girder bridge with a bunch of flyover ramps attached to it. That's what downtown needs, not a pretty bridge. Especially one that has light rail on it.
I'm happy with flyover ramps because their inclusion is to support a NorthLoop removal.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by Midtownkid »

GRID wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:50 pm I was told everybody there is happy with a flat girder bridge with a bunch of flyover ramps attached to it. That's what downtown needs, not a pretty bridge. Especially one that has light rail on it.
Well ok then, just shoot down my dreams :cry: :lol:

Light rail happens to be part of the Seattle project, but not really what I am pointing out here. I was more attracted to the arching structure.

Who is 'everybody'? Can't it be attractive as well as functional? There is utility, and there is beauty and pride. I hate the idea that we have to simply accept utility with little importance put on aesthetics. That makes our city less interesting.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by flyingember »

No one accepted utility, the budget dictated it. The state didn't want to build one, they only did when KC camp up with a lot of money to help.

It's impressive a new bridge is being built at all and that it's not just going to connect at 5th/Broadway like before, since that would be cheaper.
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by GRID »

Midtownkid wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:41 pm
GRID wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:50 pm I was told everybody there is happy with a flat girder bridge with a bunch of flyover ramps attached to it. That's what downtown needs, not a pretty bridge. Especially one that has light rail on it.
Well ok then, just shoot down my dreams :cry: :lol:

Light rail happens to be part of the Seattle project, but not really what I am pointing out here. I was more attracted to the arching structure.

Who is 'everybody'? Can't it be attractive as well as functional? There is utility, and there is beauty and pride. I hate the idea that we have to simply accept utility with little importance put on aesthetics. That makes our city less interesting.
The light rail part was sarcasm. :). Honestly, I would rather keep the Broadway bridge the way it is than have yet another boring freeway tentacle attached to downtown. And I find it unacceptable to not do something a bit more special with that bridge. I mean find a way. I can't even recall that last time I saw a city put up a girder bridge in a part of the city like that. Anymore, every city/state seems to find a way to build something interesting in an urban location like that. But I was told over and over that it doesn't need to be pretty! So fine, don't make a pretty bridge!

But at least you won't have that 39 second delay anymore for the commuters trying to get to 35! KC needs to to give people a reason to freaking drive on the surface streets. The streets there are always empty compared to any other mid sized city in the country. Even now with 25k living downtown, the surface streets are empty every time I'm there and in every video I see of KC. that's why I said, route the traffic right down broadway and stop messing with connections to the loop. Make it the "Broadway Bridge", not the Interstate 169 bridge. Get rid of the entire north and west loop and route interstate through the interstate system. Widen the east loop. Make 169 a local route into the downtown area. That's just my opinion. KC will do what KC does.
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