OFFICIAL - Buck O'Neil Bridge

[KCPowercat]

Getting rid of the north loop and bringing 9 highway to grade is our priority, this facilitates that priority.

I don't see how it's an urban planning disaster but I'm no urban planning expert, I can tell you the current situation isn't fun to get around on foot so I have no idea how this could make that worse.

[GRID]

Getting rid of the north loop and bringing 9 highway to grade is our priority, this facilitates that priority.

I don't see how it's an urban planning disaster but I'm no urban planning expert, I can tell you the current situation isn't fun to get around on foot so I have no idea how this could make that worse.

Well for one, I'm just not buying this removing the loop thing. Don't see that happening in next 20 years. Modot still has not even dealt with the I-70 curves and they have been saying those will be straightened out for decades and downtown KC has tons of open land to develop before spending a 1/2 billion or more to create more open land, so the money to get rid of the north loop is just never going to materialize IMO. Not when so many other highways around metro KC need attention. Politics will come into play. It will take at least another 10-15 years to put couple of little deck lids on 670 let alone remove the north loop.

Even if you actually believe that the north loop will go away in the next 20 years, The west loop is not needed either and it creates more problems than it's worth. They will eventually tear into the quality hill bluffs to widen that after you basically make that 169/35 an interstate grade interchange and pull traffic to 169 that would normally follow I-35 like trucks. This plan is going to induce a ton of traffic to the west loop, people that now use a variety of other routes.

But....If you are going to go this route and make the west loop a bigger part of the freeway system, then at least save the old bridge, make the new one attractive, have it all be a part of a bigger project to add recreation etc to the area. I really think this is a project that most in the KC area would be willing to spend a little more money on and do something a little more special for the city than the current plan.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

The twittersphere is absolutely pissed with the bridge design. Some 40 replies to KCMODOT page. Any chance that the backlash opens up public comment window again?

[FangKC]

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/vide ... popup=true

[KCPowercat]

Getting rid of the north loop and bringing 9 highway to grade is our priority, this facilitates that priority.

I don't see how it's an urban planning disaster but I'm no urban planning expert, I can tell you the current situation isn't fun to get around on foot so I have no idea how this could make that worse.

Well for one, I'm just not buying this removing the loop thing. Don't see that happening in next 20 years. Modot still has not even dealt with the I-70 curves and they have been saying those will be straightened out for decades and downtown KC has tons of open land to develop before spending a 1/2 billion or more to create more open land, so the money to get rid of the north loop is just never going to materialize IMO. Not when so many other highways around metro KC need attention. Politics will come into play. It will take at least another 10-15 years to put couple of little deck lids on 670 let alone remove the north loop.

Even if you actually believe that the north loop will go away in the next 20 years, The west loop is not needed either and it creates more problems than it's worth. They will eventually tear into the quality hill bluffs to widen that after you basically make that 169/35 an interstate grade interchange and pull traffic to 169 that would normally follow I-35 like trucks. This plan is going to induce a ton of traffic to the west loop, people that now use a variety of other routes.

But....If you are going to go this route and make the west loop a bigger part of the freeway system, then at least save the old bridge, make the new one attractive, have it all be a part of a bigger project to add recreation etc to the area. I really think this is a project that most in the KC area would be willing to spend a little more money on and do something a little more special for the city than the current plan.

There is that kansas city can do spirit. I've.slrrsdy explained why modot has incentive to actually do the projects. Of course there is a chance they don't happen, there is an absolute certainty they don't happen without this.

[flyingember]

Do they have incentive to do the project?

If they gain $1 million per acre they gain like $30 million

But they have to spend money the department doesn't have.

Look at the Broadway Bridge, they required the city to come up with a 50% match and still are building the most mundane design they can.



https://www.cnu.org/highways-boulevards ... tures/2019
There isn't a single removal project with cost estimates that would have modot come out ahead. The number of ramps to rebuild would remove any value for them to do this project.

The city is going to need to pay for a large percentage of the cost.

[GRID]

Getting rid of the north loop and bringing 9 highway to grade is our priority, this facilitates that priority.

I don't see how it's an urban planning disaster but I'm no urban planning expert, I can tell you the current situation isn't fun to get around on foot so I have no idea how this could make that worse.

Well for one, I'm just not buying this removing the loop thing. Don't see that happening in next 20 years. Modot still has not even dealt with the I-70 curves and they have been saying those will be straightened out for decades and downtown KC has tons of open land to develop before spending a 1/2 billion or more to create more open land, so the money to get rid of the north loop is just never going to materialize IMO. Not when so many other highways around metro KC need attention. Politics will come into play. It will take at least another 10-15 years to put couple of little deck lids on 670 let alone remove the north loop.

Even if you actually believe that the north loop will go away in the next 20 years, The west loop is not needed either and it creates more problems than it's worth. They will eventually tear into the quality hill bluffs to widen that after you basically make that 169/35 an interstate grade interchange and pull traffic to 169 that would normally follow I-35 like trucks. This plan is going to induce a ton of traffic to the west loop, people that now use a variety of other routes.

But....If you are going to go this route and make the west loop a bigger part of the freeway system, then at least save the old bridge, make the new one attractive, have it all be a part of a bigger project to add recreation etc to the area. I really think this is a project that most in the KC area would be willing to spend a little more money on and do something a little more special for the city than the current plan.

There is that kansas city can do spirit. I've.slrrsdy explained why modot has incentive to actually do the projects. Of course there is a chance they don't happen, there is an absolute certainty they don't happen without this.

I'm just being a realist. Come on. It takes KC FOREVER to do anything and with modot involved even longer. The department is freaking broke. I-70 east of Downtown needs a total rebuild from the loop to the 470 and it needs it yesterday. It litterally needs to be ripped up and rebuilt, the concrete under it is gone. That is a just one project and its probably going to cost close to a billion dollars. It's not going to happen though as Modot will put bandaids on it for the next 15 years at least. Much of the 435 loop is coming up on needing a complete rebuild on the east and north sides. I-470 on the east side too. There is no money to be made by modot removing the north loop. That will trigger all kinds of other projects too. To remove that and do other needed mods and rebuilds to the loop to make it work will cost 500-700 million dollars or more. I just don't see it happening. And it's going to take everything the city has to put together enough money to put a lid on 670 over the next 10 years, so the city is not going to chip in much.

None of that really matters. Even if the north loop was coming out, this new Broadway bridge should be a much more thought out and better project for the community than adding another high speed freeway leg to the loop and removing one of the major icons of downtown in the process.

And I do have the "KC can do" attitude, always have had it and still do even though I have not lived there for over ten years now. If I didn't, I wouldn't be on this forum. The problem is KC in general still lacks it or once they start getting some momentum the city votes in a bunch of people that don't have a clue and the city starts spinning its wheels again.

The streetcar is the one exception, but even that should have been better implemented. I don't understand going with the shared traffic curb running route for a major transit spine, but you can't have everything. It's a great project and I'm impressed that KC has pulled it off. And KC FINALLY got a nice federal transit grant for once, after decades of paying into the system for other cities to get them.

[flyingember]

None of that really matters. Even if the north loop was coming out, this new Broadway bridge should be a much more thought out and better project for the community than adding another freeway leg to the loop and removing one of the major icons of downtown in the process.

There's no way this bridge is a major icon.

A great example of iconic images is seen in art and it's rarely used by artists.

https://www.google.com/search?q=kansas+city+icons
https://www.google.com/search?q=kansas+city+art

The iconic view is from the south of downtown with no bridges in view and if you see a bridge in a scene it's usually the Bond Bridge these days.


95% of people won't think twice about it being removed. Most of the remaining 5% will prefer the connections over the design.

[GRID]

None of that really matters. Even if the north loop was coming out, this new Broadway bridge should be a much more thought out and better project for the community than adding another freeway leg to the loop and removing one of the major icons of downtown in the process.

There's no way this bridge is a major icon.

A great example of iconic images is seen in art and it's rarely used by artists.

https://www.google.com/search?q=kansas+city+icons
https://www.google.com/search?q=kansas+city+art

The iconic view is from the south of downtown with no bridges in view and if you see a bridge in a scene it's usually the Bond Bridge these days.


95% of people won't think twice about it being removed. Most of the remaining 5% will prefer the connections over the design.

And I have never been in the 95% majority of the KC crowd I guess. I have always felt like I have gone against the grain there, with just about everything. So I guess that makes sense.

I'm blown away by how desperate KC is for this high speed connection. I didn't realize things had gotten so bad there with traffic I guess.

[KCPowercat]

Well for one, I'm just not buying this removing the loop thing. Don't see that happening in next 20 years. Modot still has not even dealt with the I-70 curves and they have been saying those will be straightened out for decades and downtown KC has tons of open land to develop before spending a 1/2 billion or more to create more open land, so the money to get rid of the north loop is just never going to materialize IMO. Not when so many other highways around metro KC need attention. Politics will come into play. It will take at least another 10-15 years to put couple of little deck lids on 670 let alone remove the north loop.

Even if you actually believe that the north loop will go away in the next 20 years, The west loop is not needed either and it creates more problems than it's worth. They will eventually tear into the quality hill bluffs to widen that after you basically make that 169/35 an interstate grade interchange and pull traffic to 169 that would normally follow I-35 like trucks. This plan is going to induce a ton of traffic to the west loop, people that now use a variety of other routes.

But....If you are going to go this route and make the west loop a bigger part of the freeway system, then at least save the old bridge, make the new one attractive, have it all be a part of a bigger project to add recreation etc to the area. I really think this is a project that most in the KC area would be willing to spend a little more money on and do something a little more special for the city than the current plan.

There is that kansas city can do spirit. I've.slrrsdy explained why modot has incentive to actually do the projects. Of course there is a chance they don't happen, there is an absolute certainty they don't happen without this.

I'm just being a realist. Come on. It takes KC FOREVER to do anything and with modot involved even longer. The department is freaking broke. I-70 east of Downtown needs a total rebuild from the loop to the 470 and it needs it yesterday. It litterally needs to be ripped up and rebuilt, the concrete under it is gone. That is a just one project and its probably going to cost close to a billion dollars. It's not going to happen though as Modot will put bandaids on it for the next 15 years at least. Much of the 435 loop is coming up on needing a complete rebuild on the east and north sides. I-470 on the east side too. There is no money to be made by modot removing the north loop. That will trigger all kinds of other projects too. To remove that and do other needed mods and rebuilds to the loop to make it work will cost 500-700 million dollars or more. I just don't see it happening. And it's going to take everything the city has to put together enough money to put a lid on 670 over the next 10 years, so the city is not going to chip in much.

None of that really matters. Even if the north loop was coming out, this new Broadway bridge should be a much more thought out and better project for the community than adding another high speed freeway leg to the loop and removing one of the major icons of downtown in the process.

And I do have the "KC can do" attitude, always have had it and still do even though I have not lived there for over ten years now. If I didn't, I wouldn't be on this forum. The problem is KC in general still lacks it or once they start getting some momentum the city votes in a bunch of people that don't have a clue and the city starts spinning its wheels again.

The streetcar is the one exception, but even that should have been better implemented. I don't understand going with the shared traffic curb running route for a major transit spine, but you can't have everything. It's a great project and I'm impressed that KC has pulled it off. And KC FINALLY got a nice federal transit grant for once, after decades of paying into the system for other cities to get them.

I'll attempt to stay on topic. So two posts ago you tell us we need to rebuild 80% of the loop and redesign it at who knows what cost and now it's realist time? Pick a lane Grid!

I'm trying to get into that happy medium knowing what we're working with in MoDot.

New Buck bridge (as proposed) gets us
- 100 year bridge
- ped/bike connection across the river
- Advancement of possibility of north loop / 9 Highway changes
- better ped interaction between riverfront trail and river market
- better flow of those using 69 to get around downtown
- using the max MoDot is going to spend on the project when they were just going to "fix" the current bridge and none of the above would have been added.


This is a win IMO

[flyingember]

I'm blown away by how desperate KC is for this high speed connection. I didn't realize things had gotten so bad there with traffic I guess.

There's frequently a cop in the 1000 block to stop traffic and enable right turns onto Broadway. It's so bad at that spot that there needs to be formal traffic control five blocks from the bridge ramps.

11th frequently backs up to Central from cars that can't turn right. One day I gave up and crossed Broadway and doubled back on 12th and took Main to Indep Ave (it was during Spire work or I would have taken Wyandotte). That's right, adding 8 blocks of driving following the streetcar was faster than getting on Broadway and going six blocks. I've sat for two light cycles between 7th and 8th trying to get north of 7th St multiple times. You can move forward about 1/3 of a block per cycle at it's worse.

pulling the I-35 exiting traffic off of city streets will have a huge positive impact on downtown. And we know it's peak traffic that determines road diets so this will be critical to all sorts of changes like bus lanes.

This is what I find most incredible, the focus on the design of the bridge and not the impact of the project on people

[GRID]

^ get rid of the I-35/70 access and Broadway will flow onto the bridge just fine. You do realize that if they build those ramps, you are going to pull a lot of people off 35/29 and it's going to overwhelm the west loop, the southwest corner of the loop and those brand new flyover ramps. Then you are also creating a merge situation for those coming from broadway. Basically making the bridge a two lane bridge for those leaving downtown because you have interstate traffic flying onto the bridge from the flyover using the other lane. So during rush hour, you will still have delays at the bridge for downtowners.

Like most traffic in KC, this is not a volume or congestion issue. It's like EB 670 approaching the loop where it goes to one lane. EB 670 from KS has most no traffic volume and that is always backed up too. Downtown highways have so much going on that most of them can't function properly and this is adding more to it.

169 and Burlington both should be at grade routes into downtown with no interstate connections.

The Lewis and Cark should have gone away completely instead of being rebuilt. Modot should have spent that money to rebuild 70 east of downtown which actually has traffic and mod the SW corner of the loop to fix that one lane 670 eastbound problem. I mean jesus, the lewis and clark has been shut down for years and has had almost no impact on traffic what so ever.

The north and west loops should go away. Just keep parts of the west loop for downtown exits only.

Widen the east loop. No way around it. It needs a major widening and it has room to do it so that 35 and 71 can free flow through there. But while you are at it, cover parts of it with a deck near the stadium if that materializes. Take away most of the exits and on ramps and make one large downtown exit in the area. The old north loop can be converted into a major parkway type exit for downtown. Think Spear or Colfax in Denver or something. You could even have converted the L&C into a parkway/greenway/transitway to connect the two KCs with something other than an interstate.

[flyingember]

169 and Burlington both should be at grade routes into downtown with no interstate connections.

I would agree with it's not realistic in the real world.

For Burlington take out the SB to I-70 ramps and people will shift to Indep to Delaware
The downtown to NB ramps parallel the ramp from 6th. So this would just shift traffic with two blocks more traffic on 6th

For 169 you're talking about increasing the number of cars on Broadway because it's just 7 blocks to 12th St or 10 to 670.

This is all part of Induced Demand. Remove one road and you create demand for a different route.

The demand shouldn't be to use city streets if your goal isn't to go downtown.

[alejandro46]

Bringing 9 to grade and reducing the north loop plans are going to be impacted/eliminated without better 69 capabilities and those two projects are immensely bigger than a sexy bridge.

This is the way.

MODOT wanted to rehab the existing bridge. 2 years downtime. Doesn't fix any existing network issues (e.g. backup of traffic merging onto 35-S).

Public comment supported a new bridge and not having years without the bridge during construction. I went to the comment session. Pennies were scraped together to get a new bridge paid for. The bridge is constricted due to aviation height and budget restrictions.

Removing north loop and 9-hwy at grade is possible but will not be easy especially with KCK. If somebody came up with a comprehensive proposal to rehab Harlem into a mix use or park of some kind incorporating the bridge that wouldn't impact the new bridge or require more city funds or debt, I would say that would be worth evaluating. Overall, it doesn't sound like that has arisen yet plus there is already a walking and cycle path along the new bridge that can connect to Harlem.

[dukuboy1]

Is there anything that can be done to add some kind of aesthetics to bridge to give it some more design "pop" are architectural elements? I understand they are doing this on a shoestring budget and the FAA rules had to be adhered to. But is there anything that can be done to improve the cosmetics that are cost effect and give it a little something more? After this only the Bond Bridge will have any kind of design uniqueness to it. Surely with some of the world best architectural and engineering firms in the world located here someone can step up and add something. Even if they cover the costs as a donation to the city and thus turn it into a tax write off.

[beautyfromashes]

Anyone else hoping that some of the old city employees responsible for city planning and roads take the early retirement and we get some good urban development minds to replace them?

[moderne]

The Oak and Rockhill bridges over Brush Creek are good examples of basic concrete bridges with cosmetic upgrades to make them aesthetically pleasing. The steel railings give the impression of graceful suspension bridges.

[TheLastGentleman]

What if...we preserve the existing Buck O'Neil bridge and create an #iconic public park to honor his legacy? Sometimes, you just need to see it to believe it...

https://twitter.com/HOET_Landscape/stat ... 09067?s=20

[GRID]

^ It's a great start. Ideas are are starting to happen. People are thinking of how it could be repurposed. So happy to see it.

People here may laugh at this. But think about this for a second. One of the most popular destinations in NYC right now is the highline, a once abandoned elevated railway structure.

[KCPowercat]

I think that would be awesome. How $ awesome is the question.