Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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DaveKCMO
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by DaveKCMO »

DaveKCMO wrote:wednesday, april 23 is the date. 6-8pm.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

team recommends shared lane on HOA bridge ($25 million)

then following Burlington-
alley rail ROW to 12th
single track to 18th
double track to 29th
($105 million)


for the end of the system I can see the point to saving money on the plan initially. if it goes miles further north or proves very popular you have more of a case for the additional cost.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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http://www.kansascity.com/2014/05/04/50 ... erges.html
Instead, engineers determined it is feasible to build a streetcar line from River Market over a reconfigured Heart of America Bridge at an estimated cost of $25 million. Streetcars could run on the bridge’s east side, while the existing bicycle/pedestrian lane would be relocated to the bridge’s west side.
Once the streetcars get to North Kansas City, engineers recommended they run on single track in an unused rail right-of-way just east of Burlington Street to 12th Avenue and then in what’s now the median of Burlington from 12th to 18th avenues. They could then run double-track — which allows more streetcars to run more often — from 18th Avenue to near the northern city limits at 29th Avenue.
Planners then analyzed the potential of a special taxing district for all of North Kansas City, just like the one approved for downtown Kansas City. They found that, even with a 1-cent sales tax and 25-year special residential and commercial property taxes, plus a generous federal matching grant, the revenue generated would only be enough to get the streetcars to 18th Avenue. That’s south of where the vast majority of North Kansas City’s 4,200 residents live.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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Last edited by pash on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by DaveKCMO »

pash wrote:What's with the convoluted plan to run in the alley and the median rather than the street? Is it a lot cheaper to do that, or are they actually worried about holding up traffic on a six-lane road?
to minimize traffic impacts, of course! burlington narrows closer to the bridge. might also help spur development on both burlington and swift.

full street-running will still be studied in engineering, if NKC finds the money to advance to that step.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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ok, so can this be included in the TDD with try 2?

imagine a 10 mile spine, connecting together the urban core

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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flyingember wrote:ok, so can this be included in the TDD with try 2?

imagine a 10 mile spine, connecting together the urban core
no. they can't generate enough revenue.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by DaveKCMO »

pash wrote:Why don't they implement a tax and start collecting it? If they'd done that six years ago when they created the TDD, they'd be sitting on enough cash to make something happen right now.
call 'em up and ask!

FYI - the only city doing pay-as-you-go streetcar is OKC.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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Wasn't the establishment of the NKC TDD dependent on actually running a line through NKC? In other words some conditions included when it was voted on.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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aknowledgeableperson wrote:Wasn't the establishment of the NKC TDD dependent on actually running a line through NKC? In other words some conditions included when it was voted on.
my non-legal guess is that TDD was only for the project as described (starting at X, running by described areas and ending at Y) and can't be used for anything else. that would be the conditions with the tax

and that's exactly why you put a description with taxes, because people expect the tax to be used only for what's described

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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it also didn't raise enough money -- then or now.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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DaveKCMO wrote:it also didn't raise enough money -- then or now.
what's the percentage left to get? 25%? 50%? 75%?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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flyingember wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:it also didn't raise enough money -- then or now.
what's the percentage left to get? 25%? 50%? 75%?
it's in the northrail report, i think.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

flyingember wrote:
aknowledgeableperson wrote:Wasn't the establishment of the NKC TDD dependent on actually running a line through NKC? In other words some conditions included when it was voted on.
my non-legal guess is that TDD was only for the project as described (starting at X, running by described areas and ending at Y) and can't be used for anything else. that would be the conditions with the tax

and that's exactly why you put a description with taxes, because people expect the tax to be used only for what's described
My vague memory doesn't have that come to mind since a route had not been determined. Wanted to protect the locals from an imposed tax for nothing unless KCMO did its part.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

As the system nears opening, what do people think about heading north as part of phase 2? Expand four miles south and three miles north as one project.

As we know these are the key aspects of good transit
1. drives redevelopment
2. reduce a need for a car and parking to get more people more places

#2 is obvious
The white whale of KC transportation is to get a train to the airport. A bridge to NKC would provide a key piece of this. Who says a train to the airport has to start downtown? Light Rail stopping in Tiffany Springs could pay for a non-trivial portion of the route, for example, and keep jobs in KC. There's a reason traffic into Liberty on 152 is so bad and it's this jobs center.

We also need to start looking at how to serve Second Creek. While a rail bridge over the river and building track to 152 is expensive, it's not more expensive than widening a road bridge and miles of freeway.

NKC is full of blue collar jobs. Regular frequency transit service into an industrial district would complement the CBD, Midtown and Plaza jobs well.
It gives downtown access to more types of businesses in general.


#1 is less obvious, but there's plenty of opportunities, they're just not shiny tall towers. Even near NKC there's room for infill projects. Harlem is just one example. And it doesn't have a NIMBY problem many parts of downtown do.


Best of all, it's a town that likes public projects. They own a municipal fiber system and a hospital (and fought to not sell the hospital) They already fund a circulator bus line. It's a community that understands that making it easy for people to come to them to work helps keep taxes down.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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I don't think going north should be a huge priority for KCMO, although I do think that anyone who is willing to help pay to build and operate it should be allowed into the conversation.

But I really don't think that the white whale of KC transportation is to get a train to the airport. As much as I personally would love to be able to take a train to the airport, it's such a long way and through a ton of low density suburban development where people generally choose to live because they don't like cities, density, or transit. It doesn't make sense to spend a ton of money to bring those people something they presumably by-and-large don't want and wouldn't vote for anyway so that a few locals and travelers could avoid getting an Uber.

On top of that, I can only imagine it wouldn't be eligible for federal funds due to not meeting density requirements, but that's a guess. I don't know what any of the requirements are.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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NKC should find a way to fund a north extension. At least be the prime driver/funder.

No rail to airport. Too far. Too few riders. Many other good solutions for that challenge.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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loftguy wrote:NKC should find a way to fund a north extension. At least be the prime driver/funder.

No rail to airport. Too far. Too few riders. Many other good solutions for that challenge.
Not realistic for NKC alone. Look up in this page, 5. It costs more than the downtown segment does and it took the value of the richest property in the region to pay for 2/3 of a lower cost.

KC is producing its own suburbs still. There's too few riders today, yes.
Would you rather pay a fortune for rail north and maybe help drive higher density, walkable, suburban developments finally, or pay a fortune for freeway widening? The 100,000 people that are coming over the next few decades is taking the northland of KC Beyond the size of Overland Park today. Imagine similarity sized freeways as a result.

That 169 bridge downtown can be scaled for 6 lanes or for 8. Which one do you think helps downtown, which one requires more buildings be torn out?

We talk about rail as a reversal of suburban planning. Are you willing to pay for this change?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by KCPowercat »

NKC has casino money....they can afford it.

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