Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Transportation topics in KC
Post Reply
User avatar
DaveKCMO
Ambassador
Posts: 18611
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by DaveKCMO »

before this article disappears:

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/01/21/40 ... board.html
In 2008, North Kansas City voters approved a half-cent sales tax for a light-rail line, but that plan was contingent on Kansas City voters approving a companion measure. They didn’t. Although a North Kansas City transportation development district emerged from the election, the sales tax never kicked in.

Michael Smith, an assistant city administrator for North Kansas City, said the city is interested in plans for the streetcar system and hopes for a public transit tie-in to other parts of the metro area.
i envision a new, dedicated river crossing that is only for transit/bike/ped. seems like we'd need modot support for that. once a streetcar reaches the speeds like you see on the HOA bridge, they really need to be in dedicated ROW. not much room left on HOA since we got the separated bike lane.

pash
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3801
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:47 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by pash »

.
Last edited by pash on Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

thoughts about crossings

the HOA bridge drops continuously from one side of the river to the other, it's highest point is above Guinotte
one idea is to widen this bridge with new lanes on the outside assuming the substructure could hold a wider deck. there's already a pedestrian crossing so just put the transit line outside of that. the new lanes wouldn't necessarily need concrete, just a steel structure which would cut down on weight

the asb bridge still has the superstructure for the old pedestrian lanes and there's a clear path for a new approach on the NKC end.
downtown the original approach is blocked by an offramp making this questionable


if we're going to spend the money on a new bridge my thing would be to improve our freight infrastructure at the same time

work with the railroad and completely replace the ASB bridge with one better designed for current needs. I bet they'd like a two-wide rail bridge there
this seems messy but given the bridge is 100+ years old this might be something they'd undertake if there was money help from another source
additionally, if this is done with some new track alignments around Berkley Park, this bridge also currently aims tracks in the direction of both Liberty and Parkville , which would be needed for a commuter line.

flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

pash wrote:If a new bridge is on the table, I think there are two good options. The first is to build a bridge from Grand at Berkley Park connecting directly with Swift Ave. Alternatively, build a bridge from the end of Delaware or Main in the River Market directly across to Harlem, connecting with Harlem Rd.

The first is the better option for hooking into North Kansas City, and the second is better for hooking into KC. Neither really makes sense without a plan to develop the riverfront, whether in Harlem or in the East Bottoms. (I can't believe that there is still absolutely nothing, not even a batshit-crazy gondolas-and-unicorns plan, envisioned for Kansas City's waterfront.)

That said, whatever the options, I don't see the point of building a transit/bike/walk-only bridge across the river, unless it's much cheaper. And it wouldn't be if it's carrying a streetcar. You might as well put in a lane in each direction for cars and tie the two sides of the river together more closely for everybody (including drivers). That's needed, streetcar or no. (Is it realistic to expect a no-cars bridge anyway?) Just do it in a way that makes it feel like a local street, not a highway. Give precedence (and lots of space) to transit and bikers/walkers, sure, but two lanes for cars won't hurt anything (or even be used if the bridge is connecting undeveloped wastelands).


neither of these ideas really work, they fail because they don't think in 3D

there's doubtless minimum height requirements at the river since it's used for commerce. I'd like to know what they are but I bet it's a good 80-90 foot requirement. (remember you need clearance when there's a flood) to keep to the grade that means approaches of a minimum distance for each idea and you have minimum clearance for everything it passes over


right at swift it works because if one can keep to grade and clear the rail yard
the other approach the streetcar could do like the Huey P Long Bridge at New Orleans with a viaduct to keep to grade but a car connection from the park would be much steeper and just cut the park in half.


for the other spot
the delaware end would break the grid right there and it's the last connection to 1st st. I bet the railroad would have issue with cutting off their access

at harlem the connection would be past harlem in the middle of the rail yard, since you have to be far enough above the levee to let any vehicle go underneath unless it's a sharp curving approach
I also don't see the point to this bridge, if it's going to get to Delaware why not connect to the top level of the Hannibal bridge? It lines up much better at the northern end


neither seems like it's better than using an existing bridge
Last edited by flyingember on Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

KCtonic
New York Life
New York Life
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:24 am
Location: River Market

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by KCtonic »

I'm 100% for the streetcar thing, but I fear a pedestrian/streetcar only bridge thrown into the mix on a city-wide or county-wide scale will bring nothing but people shaking their heads saying it's just not worth it. There just has to be a way to use a bridge already there or a re-do of a current bridge or this will get a lot of negative press imo.

flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

KCtonic wrote:I'm 100% for the streetcar thing, but I fear a pedestrian/streetcar only bridge thrown into the mix on a city-wide or county-wide scale will bring nothing but people shaking their heads saying it's just not worth it. There just has to be a way to use a bridge already there or a re-do of a current bridge or this will get a lot of negative press imo.
especially since the HOA bridge already has one. it's just a really steep grade, one which I don't see a way to fit.

User avatar
DaveKCMO
Ambassador
Posts: 18611
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by DaveKCMO »

there's also the option of sharing a new bridge with a future liberty DMU line, if clay county gets it act together...

KCtonic
New York Life
New York Life
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:24 am
Location: River Market

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by KCtonic »

DaveKCMO wrote:there's also the option of sharing a new bridge with a future liberty DMU line, if clay county gets it act together...
That certainly would sound better. Clay County could be a tough one though - easier if it were just NKC as Clay County politics are tough.

flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

DaveKCMO wrote:there's also the option of sharing a new bridge with a future liberty DMU line, if clay county gets it act together...
where?

do you suggest removing part of riverfront park, riverfront west or replacing the asb bridge?

I think it's far more likely the speed limit on the HOA bridge will be dropped down to 30mph.

pash
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3801
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:47 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by pash »

.
Last edited by pash on Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DaveKCMO
Ambassador
Posts: 18611
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by DaveKCMO »

flyingember wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:there's also the option of sharing a new bridge with a future liberty DMU line, if clay county gets it act together...
where?

do you suggest removing part of riverfront park, riverfront west or replacing the asb bridge?

I think it's far more likely the speed limit on the HOA bridge will be dropped down to 30mph.
not suggesting it's technically feasible, just that it should be looked at since all of the DMU and streetcar trackage running into river market will be new.

flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

pash wrote:
flyingember wrote:neither of these ideas really work, they fail because they don't think in 3D ...
The elevations for a bridge extending Delaware, starting from about Second Street, and ending on the other side of Harlem Road, would be basically the same as those of the Broadway Bridge. It's absolutely possible to build something like that.

A bridge accessible from Berkley Park would have to be lower, but there's no fundamental reason you couldn't build one there. The rail bridge next to the Heart of America Bridge is at the height of the levees, for example, and it's flat. An arched bridge could easily connect to the roadways behind the levees.
again, look at a map before you make stuff up

for one at Delware the elevations are not the same with this idea. the broadway bridge starts blocks back and rises up to get to the needed minimum height for river clearance. in terms of a deleware lineup the bridge would start at 5th st, taking out part of the river market and part of the streetcar line

the broadway bridge also does not end in harlem. if you look at the drop to ground level it actually ends further down. the bridge itself ends at the height of top of the levee and the approach continues on


for the other spot,

omaha built a pedestrian bridge recently that's a good model for sizing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Kerrey ... ian_Bridge
it has 52 feet of clearance with a curving approach on the short end ~280 yards long. if this will be for pedestrian that's about the shortest
that's the shortest distance from front street to the drop off at the edge of the park that lines up with NKC. on the north end that's a straight line from the end of swift to the southern edge of the rail yard. if the electrical substation stays it has to go due south which is 50% longer

this bridge just became the longest in the city with crazy long spans.

the ASB bridge raises up to let boats pass. do we want to potentially hobble the transit system for an hour or more anytime that happens? thus why I think we should rebuild that bridge with a new dedicated transit level that doesn't move, just like the old car/transit level didn't.

the alternative is to put a rail stop basically under the HOA bridge and connect to the streetcar. Chicago has their commuter lines end at different spots and we could too

do we really think a new low height bridge would be approved on the river?

flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

onto the rest of the segment.

this has two items of note for routing

I would like to see it take swift to armour for sure
far less traffic and there's a lot more retail/commercial along the route. it gets closer to more jobs too

then north of armour it goes by a ton of home density.
there's also a good piece of land at 32nd for a park and ride lot next to the army surplus lot. that land is actually inside KC

it also allows for exapansion north, we know that N. Oak is a usable street for the streetcar since the city had plans to run the last plan up it, the grade requirements are the same for those vehicles.

pash
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3801
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:47 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by pash »

.
Last edited by pash on Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

pash wrote:
flyingember wrote:again, look at a map before you make stuff up ...
This is really a very silly argument. You seem to have a very dismal view of the capabilities of civil engineers and seem entirely unfamiliar with the concept of grading. That said, I think you are the one who needs to look at a map. Delaware and Main at Second Street are at 820 ft, the same elevation of the end of the Broadway Bridge's ramp at Fifth Street.
I also don't think we should build a bridge when we have multiple fine ones, including a bridge which used to have a streetcar running on it

pash
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3801
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:47 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by pash »

.
Last edited by pash on Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
bbqboy
Broadway Square
Broadway Square
Posts: 2920
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:25 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by bbqboy »


flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

that's a good example, you can clearly see the high level of clearance over the water and smooth slope for the vehicle grade requirements

if you go and look at a map of the area you'll see about a 2-3 block approach on either end.

the big deal part: it's $135 million. we could extend the line to Vivion with that kind of money and increase the usage to the north.


this is the classic problem of "it would be nice" vs "why are you wasting the money when we have a perfectly nice bridge right there? wasn't the point of a streetcar to use existing traffic lanes?"

KCtonic
New York Life
New York Life
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:24 am
Location: River Market

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by KCtonic »

Anyone thought of using a gondola as a connection from one streetcar at the RM to a streetcar in NKC?

Seriously though, I still think using an existing bridge - even with modifications required would be the easier sell.

scooterj
Ambassador
Posts: 6005
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 1:30 pm
Location: Northmoor
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by scooterj »

KCtonic wrote:Anyone thought of using a gondola as a connection from one streetcar at the RM to a streetcar in NKC?


Ooooh even better, the streetcar is the gondola. At 2nd street it is pulled up off the track and carried in the air, then is gently dropped back down on the track at 10th ave. ;)

(Because I laugh now, by 10 years from now someone somewhere will have done this and it will work great.)

Post Reply