Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

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DaveKCMO
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Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by DaveKCMO »

Image

as the image above indicates, a northeast extension of the streetcar would start in the river market and terminate at topping avenue (4.4 miles). this would directly serve columbus park, paseo west, independence plaza, pendleton heights, scarritt renaissance, indian mound, and lykins.

some of these neighborhoods are served by the current #24 (mostly on independence) and #30 (lexington/st. john) bus lines, which practically mirror their streetcar predecessors.

previous citywide light rail elections didn't do so well in these wards, but demographics are changing.

thoughts on routing, stop locations, phasing?

article from northeast news: http://northeastnews.net/pages/?p=16462
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by earthling »

If not phase two, after expansion to UMKC, or maybe even same time. NE side is now 1/3 foreign born and rapidly changing and is still 2 most dense zips in metro. I suspect they will vote for it even with microlocal tax increase if it means not needing a car. It could really boost NE Side over the hump they are so close to crossing but just not quite over.

Then again they may be satisfied with 15min daily bus service... is up to them to pursue or not.
Last edited by earthling on Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by loftguy »

I agree with earthing. NE, and specifically Independence Avenue, is the next most appropriate streetcar lines, hopefully simultaneous with the Main Street extension.

Northeast has stabalized over the past 15 years. Thanks to the immigrant communities that have chosen to locate there. Their presence and investment has prevented further decay, and coupled with interesting historic infrastructure, they are providing neighborhoods that have increasing interest to the creative population of KC.

It's the right step in many ways.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by chingon »

I don't think a streetcar vote will pass in NE anytime in the near future. Demographics there are changing, but voter demos aren't. My gut feeling is that the power brokers up there will line up behind the "bigger fish to fry/tourist frou-frou" argument.

Love to be proven wrong, though. I think NE is a gem. I think a DT to Plaza streetcar should be absolute priority 1, but I think NE is the area of town where a streetcar's eco-devo potential would be fully realized.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by mean »

I dunno, I think it has a fairly good chance in NE. I'll find out when I can start getting involved and talking to people more, but I've always thought that the "touristy frou-frou" argument was primarily against running rail only in downtown / midtown (and possibly up north)--because 99% of people who live there drive everywhere. It has always made more sense from a purely "transportation need" standpoint to provide more and better transit service to the east side and northeast, because that's where it gets used the most. Of course, that's not where the money is.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by earthling »

Those who already ride the bus may not care either way, so not want a tax increase. I already ride MAX often and do not see a direct benefit to having streetcar over bus but understand the side benefits like potential TOD, drawing more ridership with transit timid, possibly increasing property values. Some may not want a tax increase if bus can essentially get you from point A/B just the same. Some also might think that it may lead to the bad kind of gentrification, pushing out lower income immigrants for relatively higher income people who want to live along the cutesy streetcar. Methinks NE Side needs a bit of this but the hood may not agree.

I was in NOLA a couple weeks ago and rode bus and streetcar. Tourists mostly rode the streetcars and they were maybe 1/3 full, running every 15min. The buses were standing room only, some along same line. It's not modern streetcar but I found riding bus to be equally or more effective getting from A/B, the mode didn't matter - established riders want frequency and don't care about the mode. Mainstreet line will do well no matter what as it's already well established with MAX traffic and has many of the urban core amenities for visitors, but I could see NE Side possibly not seeing the long term benefit. Is up to them.

How heavy is existing bus traffic along IndAve?
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by flyingember »

I think the NE district can be sold only on access to jobs and education. if that can be provided spending the money is an easier sell.

this means connecting to lots of jobs centers first.

I see Indep Ave and NKC as a pair of lines. Sell the NKC line on easy access to people needing jobs and sell to the NE district on the opposite.

There's millions of square feet of blue collar jobs and tons of redevelopment options, smuch of it right off Burlington, though I'd use Swift, it could scream from 10th to Armour.

We can't just connect people to places that require a college degree to get a job.
If you live along 8th, dropped out of school and have no degree, you're going to be more likely to have a job mopping floors at St. Luke's at night than working downtown for a bank.
Last edited by flyingember on Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by flyingember »

earthling wrote:
I was in NOLA a couple weeks ago and rode bus and streetcar. Tourists mostly rode the streetcars and they were maybe 1/3 full, running every 15min.
you weren't riding it enough then. went for a week in August 2011 for touristy stuff.

on every weekday after work the St. Charles line would fill to capacity on the first stop heading out of downtown and still have people waiting.

and the vehicles ran 5-30 minutes apart. biking would be quicker.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by TheBigChuckbowski »

earthling wrote:Those who already ride the bus may not care either way, so not want a tax increase. I already ride MAX often and do not see a direct benefit to having streetcar over bus but understand the side benefits like potential TOD, drawing more ridership with transit timid, possibly increasing property values. Some may not want a tax increase if bus can essentially get you from point A/B just the same. Some also might think that it may lead to the bad kind of gentrification, pushing out lower income immigrants for relatively higher income people who want to live along the cutesy streetcar. Methinks NE Side needs a bit of this but the hood may not agree.

I was in NOLA a couple weeks ago and rode bus and streetcar. Tourists mostly rode the streetcars and they were maybe 1/3 full, running every 15min. The buses were standing room only, some along same line. It's not modern streetcar but I found riding bus to be equally or more effective getting from A/B, the mode didn't matter - established riders want frequency and don't care about the mode. Mainstreet line will do well no matter what as it's already well established with MAX traffic and has many of the urban core amenities for visitors, but I could see NE Side possibly not seeing the long term benefit. Is up to them.

How heavy is existing bus traffic along IndAve?
As far as I know, the farthest south you can go from the NE is 13th street without a transfer. If the NE extension connected directly into the Main St line and went all the way to the Plaza without a transfer, that could be a huge benefit for the area.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by earthling »

flyingember wrote: you weren't riding it enough then. went for a week in August 2011 for touristy stuff.

on every weekday after work the St. Charles line would fill to capacity on the first stop heading out of downtown and still have people waiting.
Yeah, I was there over holidays so little work traffic, however it was interesting that some bus lines were standing room but streetcar was just tourists. The point was though that the effectiveness of streetcar was no different than bus and it appeared (at that time), most locals preferred bus. Might be hard to convince NE Siders to pay extra tax for streetcar if the appearance of service is no different than bus. They'll need to be sold on the side benefits of rail-based transit as well.

I'm not at all opposed to streetcar but when the Downtowner ran for 25 cents 10 years ago, I used it a lot. Got some suburbanites at work to use it over lunch. It ran every 10 minutes and served its purpose. Downtown population was much less then and not many knew about it. I do recognize rail-based transit is more clearly distinguishable even if the effectiveness may be no different than bus (if shared on street). When proposing extensions, the side benefits of streetcar need to be explained because many who already ride bus may not get it.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by voltopt »

I don't know where MODoTs plans are for the north loop, but I would like the possible Independence Avenue Streetcar to coincide with the possible elimination of the cloverleaf at Missouri 9 and Interstate 70. One of the plans I saw a little while ago indicated reconnecting Independence Avenue directly through to Grand, and placing stop lights or a new, smaller interchange at MO-9 and I-70. This way the streetcar could be part of a large area of undeveloped land...

Blue is land available from interchange.
White arrow indicates re-connected Missouri avenue, in addition to independence.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by DaveKCMO »

would you still retain the NB on-ramp to MO-9? that's a possible option for extending the streetcar to NKC.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by voltopt »

I see how that would be important - what I would honestly like is a reconfiguration of the bridge from about 1st street to Independence Avenue, bringing it back down to grade. But that's not likely, obviously. This proposal would look at getting Oak/MO-9 to grade by 5th street, at least, creating an intersection and more connectivity with Columbus Park. The streetcar could then access the upward slope from either Independence Avenue or 5th street and move across the bridge without having to use an 'onramp'.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by voltopt »

This is the more 'realistic' approach to my dramatic restructuring plan of the north loop. What I'd really like is for the west and north loop to be more like a trafficway, ie/ SW Trafficway with buffers or a median, similar to Ward Parkway but on a denser scale. Therefore the major entry points for local downtown traffic could be the SW and NE corners of the loop, where the traffic becomes local with easy access to 12th, Broadway, Wyandotte, Main/Delaware, Walnut, Grand, Oak, and Charlotte. The South and East part of the loop would be for through traffic with ramps only at 11th, oak, and broadway...

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by DaveKCMO »

interesting. ideally, a NE line would start from 3rd street since that's where the maintenance facility will be located and 3rd/grand is the start of the phase 1 alignment. if a statewide transportation thing passes this year or next, maybe other alternatives would be worth exploring... but not with the current state at MoDOT.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by flyingember »

I'd think the line should go through Columbus Park somehow, not skirt along it. Bringing it along Cherry is a huge waste.

3rd to Charlotte to Independence Ave would provide the area more service and require the same number of turns and barely any more length, measured in dozens of feet.

It also gets the line within two blocks of multiple areas needing redevelopment, not just one.

if the HOA bridge is going to be redone, either keep the ramps and redo further down only or redo it like the ASB bridge was to where it hits street level much quicker. there should be no goal to redo it and cut the 3rd to HOA bridge access.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by shaffe »

I just had an idea pop into my head that might be totally asanine, or totally awesome. NKC/Indy Ave is mostly considered two halves of one bigger line. You also have the (soon to be) existing line that goes from River Market to, ultimately, UMKC.

-There's enough trains for 10 minute headways on the Phase I line
-Make sure there's enough trains for 10 minute headways across the Phase II line
-Combine the whole thing into one big 'Y' shape. Two lines worth of cars staggered could mean 5 minute headways through the core and 10 minute headways after the split through NKC and Indy Ave. One could get on at 32nd and N. Oak or Topping and Independence and ride all the way to UMKC without getting up.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by smh »

shaffe wrote:I just had an idea pop into my head that might be totally asanine, or totally awesome. NKC/Indy Ave is mostly considered two halves of one bigger line. You also have the (soon to be) existing line that goes from River Market to, ultimately, UMKC.

-There's enough trains for 10 minute headways on the Phase I line
-Make sure there's enough trains for 10 minute headways across the Phase II line
-Combine the whole thing into one big 'Y' shape. Two lines worth of cars staggered could mean 5 minute headways through the core and 10 minute headways after the split through NKC and Indy Ave. One could get on at 32nd and N. Oak or Topping and Independence and ride all the way to UMKC without getting up.
This is a great idea.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by FangKC »

voltopt wrote:This is the more 'realistic' approach to my dramatic restructuring plan of the north loop. What I'd really like is for the west and north loop to be more like a trafficway, ie/ SW Trafficway with buffers or a median, similar to Ward Parkway but on a denser scale. Therefore the major entry points for local downtown traffic could be the SW and NE corners of the loop, where the traffic becomes local with easy access to 12th, Broadway, Wyandotte, Main/Delaware, Walnut, Grand, Oak, and Charlotte. The South and East part of the loop would be for through traffic with ramps only at 11th, oak, and broadway...

Image

How do you deal with the physical nature of the north loop trench? Do you leave it in place? Fill it in?
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

Post by smh »

FangKC wrote:
voltopt wrote:This is the more 'realistic' approach to my dramatic restructuring plan of the north loop. What I'd really like is for the west and north loop to be more like a trafficway, ie/ SW Trafficway with buffers or a median, similar to Ward Parkway but on a denser scale. Therefore the major entry points for local downtown traffic could be the SW and NE corners of the loop, where the traffic becomes local with easy access to 12th, Broadway, Wyandotte, Main/Delaware, Walnut, Grand, Oak, and Charlotte. The South and East part of the loop would be for through traffic with ramps only at 11th, oak, and broadway...

Image

How do you deal with the physical nature of the north loop trench? Do you leave it in place? Fill it in?
While not my idea, I always imagined something like what's been done in Valencia with their dried up river bed could work in KC (assuming increased residential density on either side of the trench.

Image

http://www.valenciavalencia.com/sights-guide/turia.htm
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