Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

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normalthings
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings »

GRID wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:01 pm
So Main St will not have any local bus route service to serve the gaps between streetcar stops? Yikes.
Iirc, all of main street is within the official walk shed of a streetcar station. My experience has been that the walksheds are a lot smaller then how far able bodied people are willing to walk irl.

I forgot to add in my notes from last night: shooting for 10-12 minute frequencies all day on the corridor.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by langosta »

I think Dave or someone mentioned removing MAX will save KCATA something like $4 million per year. That’s a big chunk of change for an organization that small. Maybe it’s something they will evaluate with the new regional transit funding plan.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by earthling »

Agree that ideally there should be MAX (truly express with few stops) running on top of streetcar line (from Waldo to NKC/N Oak). Next best stretch would be along Broadway. Maybe in future.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by GRID »

normalthings wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:06 pm
GRID wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:01 pm
So Main St will not have any local bus route service to serve the gaps between streetcar stops? Yikes.
Iirc, all of main street is within the official walk shed of a streetcar station. My experience has been that the walksheds are a lot smaller then how far able bodied people are willing to walk irl.

I forgot to add in my notes from last night: shooting for 10-12 minute frequencies all day on the corridor.
Having to walk further might work if the streetcar was in dedicated lanes and had true signal priority, making the full trip more efficient.

If you have trams that run in traffic and stop at most of the stop lights, then walking past two or three bus stops that used to exist to reach a streetcar is not all that great, especially if you have to do it on both ends.

Especially if you are elderly, handicapped, or just have a bag of groceries you don't want to drag an extra three blocks.

I don't get it. I think you have too many people in suburban office parks that rarely live urban lifestyles designing this stuff honestly.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

Eh, I think this is maybe coming from PTSD related to the H Street project. Crown Center MAX stop is about 700 feet from the streetcar stop at Pershing and you can walk the entire distance indoors if you so choose.

I think a solid part of this project is the ability to redeploy MAX assets on a different corridor.

But I do agree that dedicated lanes would have been a gamechanger on this project, but there wasn't an appetite to reimagine the corridor. Auto brain is strong.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

earthling wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:20 pm
Agree that ideally there should be MAX (truly express with few stops) running on top of streetcar line (from Waldo to NKC/N Oak). Next best stretch would be along Broadway. Maybe in future.
These buses would essentially run empty, no? Certainly at any frequency worthy of a MAX designation.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by earthling »

If you are in Waldo and want get downtown, most would want to take MAX entire way rather than change to streetcar at Plaza. If you are downtown and want to get to Plaza, would you take streetcar with many stops or MAX with only a couple stops. The streetcar is great for local service but a true express bus on top would have a useful function, but only if extended on each end (Waldo to say N Oak). But maybe not out of the gate when streetcar expansion opens. Something to shoot for in future as broader public adoption for transit use grows.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

Yes, most of the Main MAX operating cost will be redeployed to another part of KCMO. Some will be retained to operate the Waldo-Brookside Connector that will continue south from Plaza/UMKC. Not sure where yet since who knows what our landscape will look like in 2025, but probably one of the "fast and frequent" corridors that already exist (Troost, Prospect,12th, 31st, 39th, 47th, Independence).

No chance we run overlay service for streetcar. In fact, RideKC Next is eliminating all of that to ensure better coverage and frequency elsewhere (primarily east-west).

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by GRID »

I didn't know they were removing bus service. This really bothers me. You are basically kicking to the curb 90% of real transit riders to attract new riders to the trams. When DC opened their streetcar, it had zero impact on the X2 bus line. The streetcar is all new riders moving into new apartments that probably wouldn't ride a bus, suburbanites and tourists. The bus line that operates on top the streetcar is the real "transit" line in the corridor.

There is nothing wrong with that. You need to serve all demographics for a city to thrive. Key word is "all". Things like this is what gives streetcars such a bad rap that they are only toys for affluent people that probably have a 40k car parked in a secure garage.

No bike infrastructure, little improvement to massive stretches of deteriorated and narrow sidewalks, a rail line that seems to meander around more turn lanes and parked cars than a bus on Metcalf Ave and an actual decrease in local bus service.

I grew up in midtown riding buses and bikes and walking. Did not have a car. Bus service was really good, really fast and they came very frequently within a block of anywhere along Main. It's crazy how much smaller KC's bus system is today than it was even in the 80's let alone the 50's.

I also went to school for urban planning and transportation planning and have traveled around the world and seen how real transit works in cities. I'm just glad I'm not actually an urban or transit planner and it's just a side interests. Everybody would hate me. I guess I have different ideals.

350 million dollars for streetcars and can't keep 4 million in the annual budget for proper bus service in the corridor is pretty stupid. But I digress. I've said enough to be labeled the Debbie downer of the century about this project. Look forward to riding it!

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

GRID wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:56 pm
I didn't know they were removing bus service. This really bothers me. You are basically kicking to the curb 90% of real transit riders to attract new riders to the trams. When DC opened their streetcar, it had zero impact on the X2 bus line. The streetcar is all new riders moving into new apartments that probably wouldn't ride a bus, suburbanites and tourists. The bus line that operates on top the streetcar is the real "transit" line in the corridor.
The DC comparison isn't legit. Their streetcar was simply not well designed (more prone to interference), as short as our starter line, and the X2 does so much more (actually connecting to a Metro station). Once River to UMKC is built out it will be as long as some light rail lines.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

GRID wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:56 pm
I didn't know they were removing bus service. This really bothers me. You are basically kicking to the curb 90% of real transit riders to attract new riders to the trams. When DC opened their streetcar, it had zero impact on the X2 bus line. The streetcar is all new riders moving into new apartments that probably wouldn't ride a bus, suburbanites and tourists. The bus line that operates on top the streetcar is the real "transit" line in the corridor.

There is nothing wrong with that. You need to serve all demographics for a city to thrive. Key word is "all". Things like this is what gives streetcars such a bad rap that they are only toys for affluent people that probably have a 40k car parked in a secure garage.

No bike infrastructure, little improvement to massive stretches of deteriorated and narrow sidewalks, a rail line that seems to meander around more turn lanes and parked cars than a bus on Metcalf Ave and an actual decrease in local bus service.

I grew up in midtown riding buses and bikes and walking. Did not have a car. Bus service was really good, really fast and they came very frequently within a block of anywhere along Main. It's crazy how much smaller KC's bus system is today than it was even in the 80's let alone the 50's.

I also went to school for urban planning and transportation planning and have traveled around the world and seen how real transit works in cities. I'm just glad I'm not actually an urban or transit planner and it's just a side interests. Everybody would hate me. I guess I have different ideals.

350 million dollars for streetcars and can't keep 4 million in the annual budget for proper bus service in the corridor is pretty stupid. But I digress. I've said enough to be labeled the Debbie downer of the century about this project. Look forward to riding it!
I think you need to reconsider. Streetcar will make almost all of the same stops as Main MAX, with the difference that it will run on Main through downtown instead of Grand. So there is no need for bus service: It is duplicative and wasteful. Otherwise, the system is the same between the River and UMKC.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings »

smh wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:04 pm
GRID wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:56 pm
I didn't know they were removing bus service. This really bothers me. You are basically kicking to the curb 90% of real transit riders to attract new riders to the trams. When DC opened their streetcar, it had zero impact on the X2 bus line. The streetcar is all new riders moving into new apartments that probably wouldn't ride a bus, suburbanites and tourists. The bus line that operates on top the streetcar is the real "transit" line in the corridor.

There is nothing wrong with that. You need to serve all demographics for a city to thrive. Key word is "all". Things like this is what gives streetcars such a bad rap that they are only toys for affluent people that probably have a 40k car parked in a secure garage.

No bike infrastructure, little improvement to massive stretches of deteriorated and narrow sidewalks, a rail line that seems to meander around more turn lanes and parked cars than a bus on Metcalf Ave and an actual decrease in local bus service.

I grew up in midtown riding buses and bikes and walking. Did not have a car. Bus service was really good, really fast and they came very frequently within a block of anywhere along Main. It's crazy how much smaller KC's bus system is today than it was even in the 80's let alone the 50's.

I also went to school for urban planning and transportation planning and have traveled around the world and seen how real transit works in cities. I'm just glad I'm not actually an urban or transit planner and it's just a side interests. Everybody would hate me. I guess I have different ideals.

350 million dollars for streetcars and can't keep 4 million in the annual budget for proper bus service in the corridor is pretty stupid. But I digress. I've said enough to be labeled the Debbie downer of the century about this project. Look forward to riding it!
I think you need to reconsider. Streetcar will make almost all of the same stops as Main MAX, with the difference that it will run on Main through downtown instead of Grand. So there is no need for bus service: It is duplicative and wasteful. Otherwise, the system is the same between the River and UMKC.
Exactly what I was about to post. Pretty much the same stops. I think you loose just 1 stop on main at Linwood (retain 31st)

https://ridekc.org/rider-guide/system-map

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCPowercat »

This outrage makes no sense Grid. It's upgrading the only current bus service on Main.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember »

The streetcar system needs to replace the bus because we shouldn't be spending money from two sources on the same corridor.

If the busses have life left, take the Max line and move it to Broadway with a transfer point at UMKC or The Plaza.
if they don't, move the drivers to improve service on other routes with better frequency or hours.

So we don't give up on busses, we end up with more transit coverage.


Go look at the Houston bus system. They have 19 transit centers across the metro, 8 of them are on their train lines and there's one at/near every terminus. Their bus system is a feeder system into the train.

It's not perfect but for most riders it gets them within walking/biking distance of their destination. Logically there will be a bus route from a downtown transit center that gets them close to their destination

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by GRID »

normalthings wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:27 pm
smh wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:04 pm
GRID wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:56 pm
I didn't know they were removing bus service. This really bothers me. You are basically kicking to the curb 90% of real transit riders to attract new riders to the trams. When DC opened their streetcar, it had zero impact on the X2 bus line. The streetcar is all new riders moving into new apartments that probably wouldn't ride a bus, suburbanites and tourists. The bus line that operates on top the streetcar is the real "transit" line in the corridor.

There is nothing wrong with that. You need to serve all demographics for a city to thrive. Key word is "all". Things like this is what gives streetcars such a bad rap that they are only toys for affluent people that probably have a 40k car parked in a secure garage.

No bike infrastructure, little improvement to massive stretches of deteriorated and narrow sidewalks, a rail line that seems to meander around more turn lanes and parked cars than a bus on Metcalf Ave and an actual decrease in local bus service.

I grew up in midtown riding buses and bikes and walking. Did not have a car. Bus service was really good, really fast and they came very frequently within a block of anywhere along Main. It's crazy how much smaller KC's bus system is today than it was even in the 80's let alone the 50's.

I also went to school for urban planning and transportation planning and have traveled around the world and seen how real transit works in cities. I'm just glad I'm not actually an urban or transit planner and it's just a side interests. Everybody would hate me. I guess I have different ideals.

350 million dollars for streetcars and can't keep 4 million in the annual budget for proper bus service in the corridor is pretty stupid. But I digress. I've said enough to be labeled the Debbie downer of the century about this project. Look forward to riding it!
I think you need to reconsider. Streetcar will make almost all of the same stops as Main MAX, with the difference that it will run on Main through downtown instead of Grand. So there is no need for bus service: It is duplicative and wasteful. Otherwise, the system is the same between the River and UMKC.
Exactly what I was about to post. Pretty much the same stops. I think you loose just 1 stop on main at Linwood (retain 31st)

https://ridekc.org/rider-guide/system-map
I was thinking Route 56 and Max with 56 being for local and max for express. That's how I recall it. I just think a strong bus system is key to a strong transit system and putting all your eggs in the streetcar seems like you are taking a step forward, but at the same time taking one back.

I'm probably being too hard on the plan. It really seems to come down to lack of regional funding for a true robust bus system to co-exist wit the streetcar. If you are in east crossroads or crown center or beacon hill you shouldn't be forced to make your way to the streetcar for high level transit in the center of a major city.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember »

GRID wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:52 pm

I was thinking Route 56 and Max with 56 being for local and max for express. That's how I recall it. I just think a strong bus system is key to a strong transit system and putting all your eggs in the streetcar seems like you are taking a step forward, but at the same time taking one back.

I'm probably being too hard on the plan. It really seems to come down to lack of regional funding for a true robust bus system to co-exist wit the streetcar. If you are in east crossroads or crown center or beacon hill you shouldn't be forced to make your way to the streetcar for high level transit in the center of a major city.
Who's forced to walk to Main?

If you're in East Crossroads there's bus service on Grand. 47 crosses the streetcar route on Pershing

and Beacon Hill has Troost Max running at it.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCPowercat »

GRID wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:52 pm
If you are in east crossroads or crown center or beacon hill you shouldn't be forced to make your way to the streetcar for high level transit in the center of a major city.
So like the Troost MAX Grid? Or maybe the routes running down Grand? through east crossroads / crown center / beacon hill?

Maybe check out the current system map,
https://ridekc.org/rider-guide/system-map

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:56 pm
GRID wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:52 pm

I was thinking Route 56 and Max with 56 being for local and max for express. That's how I recall it. I just think a strong bus system is key to a strong transit system and putting all your eggs in the streetcar seems like you are taking a step forward, but at the same time taking one back.

I'm probably being too hard on the plan. It really seems to come down to lack of regional funding for a true robust bus system to co-exist wit the streetcar. If you are in east crossroads or crown center or beacon hill you shouldn't be forced to make your way to the streetcar for high level transit in the center of a major city.
Who's forced to walk to Main?

If you're in East Crossroads there's bus service on Grand. 47 crosses the streetcar route on Pershing

and Beacon Hill has Troost Max running at it.
Not to mention East Crossroads also has Troost MAX. Lots of options for frequent N/S connections these days.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by GRID »

KCPowercat wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:00 pm
GRID wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:52 pm
If you are in east crossroads or crown center or beacon hill you shouldn't be forced to make your way to the streetcar for high level transit in the center of a major city.
So like the Troost MAX Grid? Or maybe the routes running down Grand? through east crossroads / crown center / beacon hill?

Maybe check out the current system map,
https://ridekc.org/rider-guide/system-map
I took a look. I was under the impression that Grand would lose most high quality bus service once max goes away which I think would be a bad move and I didn't know that 56 has already been removed from Main, so I guess people are used to only max stops on main now. I recall Main being serviced by at least 56 and max making frequency and accessibility really good. What bus lines will be on Grand after max is gone? I'm sure it won't be a frequent user friendly line like max, but just random unpredictable bus routes heading downtown?

So basically to get from downtown or crown center to the plaza, you only have the mox line now?

I need to study the system more for sure. It looks like route 28 has been decimated. I used that route a lot too and it had a ton of frequency and express routes compared to now.

It just seems like the overall bus system has severely downsized although now there are some nice upgraded routes along troost and prospect and the upcoming streetcar. Getting rid of one of the few good bus routes in the city seems counterproductive when it could be modified to improve transit in the area.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCPowercat »

Dave might fly all the way out there to smack your face with talk like that :)

Bus service has definitely improved. I'm sure there is data to back that up.

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