Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Transportation topics in KC
User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 30714
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCPowercat »

Where shall I pile?

User avatar
GRID
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 14773
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by GRID »

DaveKCMO wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:46 pm
Please feel free to pile on the with the wider sidewalk and traffic calming comments. The city still needs to find its mojo on this stuff.

I take it there was just not enough room for cycleways or some sort of bike lanes? So many turn lanes and curb parking though and even wasted space like between armour and 37th. Striping off 12 feet of pavement that could be used for sidewalks, bike lanes etc.

As an avid urban cyclist, Main really could use biking infrastructure.

User avatar
normalthings
Oak Tower
Oak Tower
Posts: 4504
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings »

GRID wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:20 pm
DaveKCMO wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:46 pm
Please feel free to pile on the with the wider sidewalk and traffic calming comments. The city still needs to find its mojo on this stuff.
Striping off 12 feet of pavement that could be used for sidewalks, bike lanes etc.
Restaurant space!!

User avatar
normalthings
Oak Tower
Oak Tower
Posts: 4504
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings »

KCPowercat wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:16 pm
Where shall I pile?
https://www.buildkcstreetcar.com/



Scroll to bottom to see comment and info map. Like exiting comments, drag and drop to place your own, etc.
Last edited by normalthings on Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
GRID
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 14773
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by GRID »

The more I look at this, the more it looks like they are doing almost nothing to actually improve Main Street with such a massive once in a lifetime project like this.

Why??? The only part of this that looks like a modern urban street rebuild is the part between 47th and UMKC. The rest looks like they just slapped rail on main street with very little thought. Very little improvement to the pedestrian/cyclist environment or even the aesthetics of Main Street in general.
Last edited by GRID on Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
normalthings
Oak Tower
Oak Tower
Posts: 4504
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings »

GRID wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:27 pm
The more I look at this, the more it looks like they are doing almost nothing to actually improve Main Street with such a massive once in a lifetime project like this.

Why??? The only part of this that looks like a modern urban street rebuild is the part between 47th and UMKC. The rest looks like they just slapped rail on main street with very little thought. Very little improvement to the pedestrian/cyclist environment or even the aesthetics of Main Street in general.
IIRC. Neighborhood push back against center running, turning lanes, and big reductions to car space. Business pushed back against removing street parking.

Lots of development will occur in the next few years. Much of these spaces are going to get ripped out and rebuilt in a few years (or so I hope). Seems wasteful to make big landscaping and sidewalk changes everywhere. I prefer leaving spaces marked off at this point. As the area gets built up, they can be quickly converted into bike parking, seating space, outdoor patios, etc.
Last edited by normalthings on Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
GRID
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 14773
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by GRID »

You should not be just adding track, you are making a major infrastructure modification that should include more than just adding track and stops. Basically just adding wires to the MAX buses. May as well just bought electric trolley buses instead of installing rail.

There has to be a way to make better use of the right of way of a very wide street like Main Street and do more with the sidewalks, bike lanes etc. I guess keeping curb parking and having full access to turn left everywhere has forced this design?

User avatar
normalthings
Oak Tower
Oak Tower
Posts: 4504
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings »

GRID wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:43 pm
You should not be just adding track, you are making a major infrastructure modification that should include more than just adding track and stops. Basically just adding wires to the MAX buses. May as well just bought electric trolley buses instead of installing rail.

There has to be a way to make better use of the right of way of a very wide street like Main Street and do more with the sidewalks, bike lanes etc. I guess keeping curb parking and having full access to turn left everywhere has forced this design?
.....
Last edited by normalthings on Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
GRID
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 14773
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by GRID »

normalthings wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:40 pm
GRID wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:27 pm
The more I look at this, the more it looks like they are doing almost nothing to actually improve Main Street with such a massive once in a lifetime project like this.

Why??? The only part of this that looks like a modern urban street rebuild is the part between 47th and UMKC. The rest looks like they just slapped rail on main street with very little thought. Very little improvement to the pedestrian/cyclist environment or even the aesthetics of Main Street in general.
IIRC. Neighborhood push back against center running, turning lanes, and big reductions to car space. Business pushed back against removing street parking.

Lots of development will occur in the next few years. I prefer leaving spaces marked off at this point. As the area gets built up, they can be quickly converted into bike parking, seating space, outdoor patios, etc. Also seems better to leave as is before it gets ripped apart by construction.
That's what I would hope for. They are leaving room to do it later as each of the curb cuts get taken out etc. But that's gong to take decades to do anything more than a block here and there.

I honestly do not know. Did they not have room to do more with the pedestrian/cyclists infrastructure in the corridor or was it due to budget? Are they designing it so that these improvements can be easily implemented after the tram line is built? And why not do it now where it's likely that the existing development is not going to change and then fill in the gaps where future development is likely coming soon.

User avatar
normalthings
Oak Tower
Oak Tower
Posts: 4504
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings »

GRID wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:48 pm
normalthings wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:40 pm
GRID wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:27 pm
The more I look at this, the more it looks like they are doing almost nothing to actually improve Main Street with such a massive once in a lifetime project like this.

Why??? The only part of this that looks like a modern urban street rebuild is the part between 47th and UMKC. The rest looks like they just slapped rail on main street with very little thought. Very little improvement to the pedestrian/cyclist environment or even the aesthetics of Main Street in general.
IIRC. Neighborhood push back against center running, turning lanes, and big reductions to car space. Business pushed back against removing street parking.

Lots of development will occur in the next few years. I prefer leaving spaces marked off at this point. As the area gets built up, they can be quickly converted into bike parking, seating space, outdoor patios, etc. Also seems better to leave as is before it gets ripped apart by construction.
That's what I would hope for. They are leaving room to do it later as each of the curb cuts get taken out etc. But that's gong to take decades to do anything more than a block here and there.

I honestly do not know. Did they not have room to do more with the pedestrian/cyclists infrastructure in the corridor or was it due to budget? Are they designing it so that these improvements can be easily implemented after the tram line is built? And why not do it now where it's likely that the existing development is not going to change and then fill in the gaps where future development is likely coming soon.
I don't think they are really doing much less than what they did for the starter line. Maybe it's just more apparent now that the road is so much wider?

User avatar
GRID
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 14773
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by GRID »

normalthings wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:53 pm
GRID wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:48 pm
normalthings wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:40 pm


IIRC. Neighborhood push back against center running, turning lanes, and big reductions to car space. Business pushed back against removing street parking.

Lots of development will occur in the next few years. I prefer leaving spaces marked off at this point. As the area gets built up, they can be quickly converted into bike parking, seating space, outdoor patios, etc. Also seems better to leave as is before it gets ripped apart by construction.
That's what I would hope for. They are leaving room to do it later as each of the curb cuts get taken out etc. But that's gong to take decades to do anything more than a block here and there.

I honestly do not know. Did they not have room to do more with the pedestrian/cyclists infrastructure in the corridor or was it due to budget? Are they designing it so that these improvements can be easily implemented after the tram line is built? And why not do it now where it's likely that the existing development is not going to change and then fill in the gaps where future development is likely coming soon.
I don't think they are really doing much less than what they did for the starter line. Maybe it's just more apparent now that the road is so much wider?
I know, but I thought they would do more since they have so much more room to work with. Main St downtown carries very little traffic. Actually, they should make it very difficult to drive all the way through on Main street (north of union station) to discourage people from using it for car trips through downtown.

In a proper system, I see main street north of union station eventually becoming a transitway with no private vehicles allowed. Wide sidewalks, cycleway and rail. Emergency and delivery vehicles only. Main south of Union Statin will always be a major vehicle arterial, but hopefully the tracks are laid in a way that the sidewalks/cycling infrastructure can be drastically improved relatively quickly and easily. Slow down traffic on it and push through traffic to Broadway, Ghillam or even better SW TFWY, 71 etc. Then it would only need two car lanes, but they could remain 35mph or so.

User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 30714
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCPowercat »

Yah go back quite a few pages. These were all.called for here and residents and businesses down there didn't want it.

alejandro46
Western Auto Lofts
Western Auto Lofts
Posts: 501
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:24 pm
Location: King in the North(Land)

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by alejandro46 »

I wish we had a more concrete overlay district along the streetcar with exact guidelines for what developers are allowed/required to build along the streetcar line. Ex. curb cuts along Main to a minimum, maximum setbacks, minimum height requirements w/no maximum, etc.

User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 30714
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCPowercat »

if we're at 60% design with this already, what are these comments really going to change at this point?

User avatar
smh
Supporter
Posts: 3732
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 pm
Location: Central Loop

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

KCPowercat wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:26 pm
if we're at 60% design with this already, what are these comments really going to change at this point?
In Arnstein's ladder of citizen participation this would be somewhere between Therapy and Informing. I.e., not real citizen participation.

Image

User avatar
smh
Supporter
Posts: 3732
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 pm
Location: Central Loop

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

GRID wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:03 pm
normalthings wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:53 pm
GRID wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:48 pm


That's what I would hope for. They are leaving room to do it later as each of the curb cuts get taken out etc. But that's gong to take decades to do anything more than a block here and there.

I honestly do not know. Did they not have room to do more with the pedestrian/cyclists infrastructure in the corridor or was it due to budget? Are they designing it so that these improvements can be easily implemented after the tram line is built? And why not do it now where it's likely that the existing development is not going to change and then fill in the gaps where future development is likely coming soon.
I don't think they are really doing much less than what they did for the starter line. Maybe it's just more apparent now that the road is so much wider?
I know, but I thought they would do more since they have so much more room to work with. Main St downtown carries very little traffic. Actually, they should make it very difficult to drive all the way through on Main street (north of union station) to discourage people from using it for car trips through downtown.

In a proper system, I see main street north of union station eventually becoming a transitway with no private vehicles allowed. Wide sidewalks, cycleway and rail. Emergency and delivery vehicles only. Main south of Union Statin will always be a major vehicle arterial, but hopefully the tracks are laid in a way that the sidewalks/cycling infrastructure can be drastically improved relatively quickly and easily. Slow down traffic on it and push through traffic to Broadway, Ghillam or even better SW TFWY, 71 etc. Then it would only need two car lanes, but they could remain 35mph or so.
A mistake I think cycling advocates made was to never propose bike infrastructure on Main because of the pending streetcar. Therefore when street configuration was considered, bikes were not given much priority since Main "wasn't on the proposed bike plan" for the city.

User avatar
GRID
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 14773
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by GRID »

smh wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:55 am
GRID wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:03 pm
normalthings wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:53 pm


I don't think they are really doing much less than what they did for the starter line. Maybe it's just more apparent now that the road is so much wider?
I know, but I thought they would do more since they have so much more room to work with. Main St downtown carries very little traffic. Actually, they should make it very difficult to drive all the way through on Main street (north of union station) to discourage people from using it for car trips through downtown.

In a proper system, I see main street north of union station eventually becoming a transitway with no private vehicles allowed. Wide sidewalks, cycleway and rail. Emergency and delivery vehicles only. Main south of Union Statin will always be a major vehicle arterial, but hopefully the tracks are laid in a way that the sidewalks/cycling infrastructure can be drastically improved relatively quickly and easily. Slow down traffic on it and push through traffic to Broadway, Ghillam or even better SW TFWY, 71 etc. Then it would only need two car lanes, but they could remain 35mph or so.
A mistake I think cycling advocates made was to never propose bike infrastructure on Main because of the pending streetcar. Therefore when street configuration was considered, bikes were not given much priority since Main "wasn't on the proposed bike plan" for the city.
Even if you don't include bike lanes (a huge mistake IMO), most of Main needs new sidewalks etc. I just do not understand why that is not being redone at the same time. They are probably ripping up water mains and everything else. Now is the time to rebuild the sidewalks and do so in a way that lays the groundwork for a more urban street. There is so much wasted right of way used for turn lanes, or just striped off for nothing.

I'm honestly not trying to be hard on the streetcar project. I think it's great for KC. But this is a 350 million dollar project. That is a lot of money for a few miles of tram. Spend the extra 20-50 million and properly redo Main Street while you have the entire area tore up for two years instead of making it look like the streetcar was an afterthought added to a suburban type street.

The part south of 47th actually looks like it will include some sidewalk work etc.

It is what it is. Just venting. Don't make Main street like I-70 in the KC area and just be doing little bandaids on it for decades constantly and it never ever looks finished or modernized. Design something right and build it right so it can be left alone and be enjoyed for a few decades. Make Main Street inviting to walk or bike on. It's going to be dumb to still have crumbling sidewalks and curbs, no bike lanes, landscaping etc after the tram line opens.

They should have pushed harder to make it center running, to keep the rail straight and out of the way so it's easier to improve the rest of the infrastructure along main.

That's not happening so I will stop. I just hope the city does more than just add rail and meander it around parked cars and turn lanes while leaving all the existing sidewalks unimproved.

But you gotta take what you can get. I honestly never thought KC would get this far. But that doesn't mean it couldn't have been done better.

User avatar
smh
Supporter
Posts: 3732
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 pm
Location: Central Loop

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

I think some sidewalks are being added (particularly between Pershing and 27th). But overall I agree with you. It seems like there could be more coordination with PW on that front.

User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 30714
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCPowercat »

The use of painted stripes is just dumb based on our history. Everyone of them just just be wider sidewalks.

Bike lanes on main is dumb too. Let's use another road. Charlotte/holmes already is a better biking experience with established lanes, less traffic, less elevation.

User avatar
smh
Supporter
Posts: 3732
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 pm
Location: Central Loop

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

KCPowercat wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:10 am
The use of painted stripes is just dumb based on our history. Everyone of them just just be wider sidewalks.

Bike lanes on main is dumb too. Let's use another road. Charlotte/holmes already is a better biking experience with established lanes, less traffic, less elevation.
You assume bike lanes are for commuting the corridor, what about all of the existing businesses and future residents in the corridor who might want to bike through midtown? Not a lot of elevation change between say 31st and 45th.

The "use another road" line of reasoning, imho, overlooks that bikes ought to be useable on every road (like cars are today).

But I agree, the painted stripes are dumb. Also, I've noticed in some cities (ahem, Philadelphia) that delivery trucks simply park on top of the flex posts to use cordoned off spaces.

Post Reply