Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

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KCtoBrooklyn
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCtoBrooklyn »

Luyben Music is going out of business. I am a little surprised they held out this long as I'm sure online shopping greatly ate into their business.

If American Century can acquire this parcel to consolidate the whole block, this is might be the most prime, easily-developable site along the streetcar extension.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by missingkc »

Sorry to hear about Luyben's. I'm sure you're right about online shopping contributing to their demise, but it was great to be in there and know that everyone else there was a music lover and making music. Can't get that shopping online.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings »

KCtoBrooklyn wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:39 pm
Luyben Music is going out of business. I am a little surprised they held out this long as I'm sure online shopping greatly ate into their business.

If American Century can acquire this parcel to consolidate the whole block, this is might be the most prime, easily-developable site along the streetcar extension.
UMKC will be the biggest and fastest to get developed. The American Century field catercorner from Luyben is bigger and pre-cleared so I expect that to go quickly as well as Crown Center South. Followed by Luyben and then (I beg) Midtown Marketplace

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

You should have zero confidence that American Century will actually develop all of that land. Yeah, they'll probably acquire it (and sit on it).

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by taxi »

I think we all agree that lots of things are going to be different, post-COVID-19. Do you folks think this will have a profound effect on mass transit? While I don't agree with some who say people will retreat from cities (at least not ones the size of KC), I suspect people will feel more comfortable in their own vehicle than on a bus or streetcar. This would be unfortunate, coming on the heels of the new urbanism movement that saw a change in the other direction.

Combine that with our troubling economy, impending depression and political turmoil, could this mean trouble ahead for the streetcar extension? Thoughts?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by kas1 »

After 9/11, people were convinced that no skyscraper would ever be built in NYC again because the public would be too scared to live or work in one.

Look how that turned out.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

taxi wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 1:31 pm
I think we all agree that lots of things are going to be different, post-COVID-19. Do you folks think this will have a profound effect on mass transit? While I don't agree with some who say people will retreat from cities (at least not ones the size of KC), I suspect people will feel more comfortable in their own vehicle than on a bus or streetcar. This would be unfortunate, coming on the heels of the new urbanism movement that saw a change in the other direction.

Combine that with our troubling economy, impending depression and political turmoil, could this mean trouble ahead for the streetcar extension? Thoughts?
By the time the thing actually opens in 2024 or 2025, people will mostly be back to normal.

Ridership on Main MAX in Midtown remains decent today -- despite key trip generators (downtown office jobs, plaza service industry jobs, and UMKC classes in session) all evaporating instantly -- as it provides valuable connections between intersecting routes. No reason to believe the UMKC-to-River Market line wouldn't retain the pre-COVID 4,500 daily trips of Main MAX, plus a premium for those who won't ride the bus.

If you recall, the traditional downtown ridership estimate -- which looked at tried and true demographics, rather than the explosion of casual trips that fueled actual streetcar ridership -- was about 2,700 per day. In the lowest winter months with nothing going on, some weekdays hit that amount.

In short, it'll be fine if the feds issue the grant and the city keeps doing what it's doing to advance the project. The next council vote will be for the vehicle purchase, but the plan is to have the grant announced before that vote is required (providing a bit more political cover for those who typically vote no on the project: Loar, Hall, Ellington).

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCPowercat »

I honestly think the "new normal" discussions of COVID19 is overblown in almost topic right now.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by kboish »

I agree.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by grovester »

At the same time, we should expect, locally and nationally, a lot of spin about debt and how we just can't afford non-essential luxuries.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

grovester wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 9:25 am
At the same time, we should expect, locally and nationally, a lot of spin about debt and how we just can't afford non-essential luxuries.
It would be fair to point out that the project will be backed by (not funded by) city debt, but if the federal grant is confirmed and the TDD exceeds expectations (which is a solid bet since there are multiple reserves, the TDD has always exceeded its pro forma, and the city can't dip into that money for other purposes) then there's no reason to halt the project.

On top of all of that, the extension replaces the Main MAX, which costs KCATA $4+ million to operate. Those funds can then be spent elsewhere in the city.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

grovester wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 1:50 pm
How far does this get us?

https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/kc ... -extension
The final federal step -- the actual grant -- is still outstanding and still scheduled for early 2021. City could order vehicles if the Council wanted to (we ordered Prospect MAX vehicles before GO Bond passed), but I suspect that will wait until the grant is in hand so that it's less political.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCPowercat »

OH man yeah the media would make a circus out of "buying streetcars during a pandemic"

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings »

DaveKCMO wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 4:34 pm
grovester wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 1:50 pm
How far does this get us?

https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/kc ... -extension
The final federal step -- the actual grant -- is still outstanding and still scheduled for early 2021. City could order vehicles if the Council wanted to (we ordered Prospect MAX vehicles before GO Bond passed), but I suspect that will wait until the grant is in hand so that it's less political.
Have there been any changes from order 1 to order 2 to order 3? Or is it just the exact same vehicle?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

A new procurement for the extension vehicles, spec'd very similarly. The shortening of the riverfront extension requires no new vehicles.

Blows my mind that by the time the new ones arrive, the first four will be over 10 years old!

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember »

I would hope that after ten years they've made design improvements. Sure, not everything would change, but at the very least I would expect higher quality video cameras and screens in a newer model.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:06 pm

So, this isn't over.

She filed for a re-hearing the next day on Feb 15.

The motion was due March 11th. She filed for an extension which was granted.

The extension made the response due tomorrow. But with the courts largely shut down the document might be due tomorrow, it might not be. There's no entry showing it's not due at this point.
Back to fun with lawsuits. WD82459. Original case 1716-CV02051

On March 11 she got an extension to April 10. On April 13 she filed for another extension. It was given to June 15 and the entry has the text
"No Further Extensions"

This extension is for the paperwork needed to validate an appeals court rehearing or transfer to the state supreme court.


The original case was filed Jan 24, 2017. So we are 3 years, 4 months into the process.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by Chris Stritzel »

Here's a potential cost saver: CAF has a tram similar to the current streetcars, that runs on a battery. So, track could be laid, but electrical work wouldn't have to extend past Union Station. This can save lots of money. Only issue I see here is that the existing Streetcars wouldn't be compatible. But say the system continues to expand and another line is built to a different part of the city, these could be used to cut down on costs.

The story is two years old, so I assume the technology has improved a bit over the past 2 years. I am unsure if you need a LinkedIn account to read this: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/caf-urbo ... -piqueras/

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings »

Chris Stritzel wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:46 pm
Here's a potential cost saver: CAF has a tram similar to the current streetcars, that runs on a battery. So, track could be laid, but electrical work wouldn't have to extend past Union Station. This can save lots of money. Only issue I see here is that the existing Streetcars wouldn't be compatible. But say the system continues to expand and another line is built to a different part of the city, these could be used to cut down on costs.

The story is two years old, so I assume the technology has improved a bit over the past 2 years. I am unsure if you need a LinkedIn account to read this: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/caf-urbo ... -piqueras/
Birmingham Metro added batteries to the same vehicle we use and got it to run for a little over 18 miles. They are about to open an entire line that will run on battery powered URBOS 3s.

The purchase price of the vehicles includes 30 years of battery replacements so no worries about decreasing storage capacity.

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