OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

[beautyfromashes]

How about we make a traffic circle where the tennis courts are? This would connect Main, Broadway, Brookside, ECII, Brush Creek, Main south of BC, etc.

I really don't get why people want to remove a notable and heavily used urban city park service.

to get to the tennis courts would actually be a reason to ride the streetcar, there's not much parking along the courts right now.

Because it takes up a large amount of space in a very prime location and is used by a relatively small number of people.

[DaveKCMO]

those tennis courts are a MAJOR urban service for kansas city residents. they're lighted for night usage and get the use.

I would never consider tearing them out.

you mean the people -- not all of them KC residents, for sure -- who can afford to pay the court fees? relying on tennis courts for lighting the area seems like a stretch. besides, it's not original to the plaza and is owned by the city. they can move it if they want. i can't believe we're talking about a tennis court like it's a sacred cow.

[flyingember]

those tennis courts are a MAJOR urban service for kansas city residents. they're lighted for night usage and get the use.

I would never consider tearing them out.

you mean the people -- not all of them KC residents, for sure -- who can afford to pay the court fees? relying on tennis courts for lighting the area seems like a stretch. besides, it's not original to the plaza and is owned by the city. they can move it if they want. i can't believe we're talking about a tennis court like it's a sacred cow.

One point that's often made is Kansas City proper has the amenities for people from the whole region to use. We want to push these amenities so more regional people come and spend money in KC so things like the 1% tax can go away.

keep the tennis courts so they spend their money in Kansas City, not at a country club in Kansas. we want them eating dinner on the Plaza, not at Town Center Plaza. We want the shopping + tennis trip to be inside Kansas City. we want them to get gas at a kansas city gas station.

sure, removing the tennis courts may help the plaza, but removing them may not help Kansas City.

[loftguy]

Somebody smarter than me would have to figure out how best to serve the Plaza with the streetcar while balancing travel time to UMKC.

tear down those stupid tennis courts and build retail and residential so that there's an actual reason for people to exist on 47th at main.

those tennis courts are a MAJOR urban service for kansas city residents. they're lighted for night usage and get the use.

I would never consider tearing them out.

Major urban service? Must call you on this one. How many people make use of them? And exactly who are those people and who controls the use of the courts?

They spend money in KC as result of the courts? I'm skeptical about the outcome of that cost/benefit analysis.

OK, I in some twisted way like that the tennis courts are there. They are not controlled by Highwoods, bringing some public balance to the Plaza, in that they "represent" the concept of the proleteriat.

However, for me they are a neutered relic that calls up the image of the good old days of Kansas City's moneyed set, compleat with deed restrictions, class separation and conspicuous consumption.

[chrizow]

i like the idea of a tennis complex near the plaza, but i don't think it needs to be smack dab in the middle of what has to be the most highly-trafficked intersection in the entire urban core. as davekcmo says, it could be a good spot for residential or retail. if someone proposed such a plan, i think the tennis courts could be moved somewhere else nearby.

[earthling]

Have never thought about tearing out the Plaza tennis courts but given that Highwoods has NO interest in neighborhood amenities for Plaza residents, this would be the perfect spot to have a small grocer, small Walgreens, mini coffee counter along pocket park, maybe food trucks and streetcar TOD amenities. There are 3 CVSs along Main but no Walgreens so they may be interested to have one along streetcar line. It could also act as the Plaza Transit Center for the JoCo bus lines and crosstown buses that come into Plaza. This use would be far more beneficial to the neighborhood and streetcar (or existing MAX) line than the existing tennis courts.

Hmm... this needs to be proposed to the City.

[smh]

Have never thought about tearing out the Plaza tennis courts but given that Highwoods has NO interest in neighborhood amenities for Plaza residents, this would be the perfect spot to have a small grocer, small Walgreens, mini coffee counter along pocket park, maybe food trucks and streetcar TOD amenities. There are 3 CVSs along Main but no Walgreens so they may be interested to have one along streetcar line. It could also act as the Plaza Transit Center for the JoCo bus lines and crosstown buses that come into Plaza. This use would be far more beneficial to the neighborhood and streetcar (or existing MAX) line than the existing tennis courts.

Hmm... this needs to be proposed to the City.

I see no reason the Plaza tennis courts couldn't simply be reconstructed up Ward Parkway a bit from the Plaza. Still convenient for everyone. Perhaps they could be built where the tennis courts already exist around Holly Street.

[earthling]

I've posted the tennis courts thing here, please support if you agree..

http://midtownplaza.mindmixer.com/land- ... us=Created

[beautyfromashes]

How would a proper retail buildout of the tennis location affect the Plaza? I would say it would be a positive push at Highwoods to put in local establishments/restaurants and service companies that meet a community need. Call it the anti-Plaza alternative.

The tennis courts could be moved a lot of place. Build a facility along Brush Creek closer to Stowers Institute and UMKC. But, really there are so many other places that could pick up the demand. Woodside is just down the street, for example. Tennis in that location is a waste.

[flyingember]

How many people make use of them?

I'm sure there's a legit need for services at the plaza.

but the whole point of the streetcar is to make it easy for people to get to places along the line without needing to tear anything out.

at that point the number of users is irrelevant.

don't tear out tennis courts, put the new development on the big empty grassy area a 3 blocks north instead.

that we're discussing removing anything from among the line kills the idea.
after all, building a stop next to it provides tennis courts for everyone from the river market south without having to build tennis courts. and the city hasn't spent money unnecessarily.

oh and there's tennis courts along Brush Creek in two places already. They don't get near the use. Location (no parking) has a lot to do with one set not getting used.

[chingon]

I almost always advocate for shorter, straighter more intuitive routes, but there is a part of me that would be intrigued by including Westport in the Phase 2 proposal by diverting the route down Westport Road (from Main) over to Nichols/Broadway, then continuing south through the Plaza and then east on Ward Parkway/Volker BLVD to UMKC/Stowers @ Troost.

Would add less than a quarter mile of track, but allow a TDD with Wesport.

[flyingember]

I almost always advocate for shorter, straighter more intuitive routes, but there is a part of me that would be intrigued by including Westport in the Phase 2 proposal by diverting the route down Westport Road (from Main) over to Nichols/Broadway, then continuing south through the Plaza and then east on Ward Parkway/Volker BLVD to UMKC/Stowers @ Troost.

Would add less than a quarter mile of track, but allow a TDD with Wesport.

there's a dedicated transit row owned by the kcata from westport and mill towards the east side of the plaza

[beautyfromashes]

How many people make use of them?

I'm sure there's a legit need for services at the plaza.

but the whole point of the streetcar is to make it easy for people to get to places along the line without needing to tear anything out.

at that point the number of users is irrelevant.

don't tear out tennis courts, put the new development on the big empty grassy area a 3 blocks north instead.

No, the idea is that a streetcar line will increase the value of property/land along the streetcar line and that there will be higher level development along the line. Replacing the tennis courts would be part of the improvement of the line. You would take a limited value use project and replace it with a extremely high use project next to the most expensive properties in the core.

[bobbyhawks]

keep the tennis courts so they spend their money in Kansas City, not at a country club in Kansas. we want them eating dinner on the Plaza, not at Town Center Plaza. We want the shopping + tennis trip to be inside Kansas City. we want them to get gas at a kansas city gas station.

sure, removing the tennis courts may help the plaza, but removing them may not help Kansas City.

I don't think that people who belong to country clubs are playing their tennis on the plaza, but I know for a fact that people who belong to country clubs are spending a lot of money on the Plaza. This tennis location will attract the same clientele no matter where it is in the vicinity. I like how the tennis courts add to the "country club" asthetic, but I also agree that replacing them with something that extends the Plaza to the East would be very beneficial to the neighborhood.

The top of my list would be a small but high-end grocery store (like the size of the Fairway Hen House), a high-end spa/fitness center, a Kansas City tourism office, a rooftop restaurant on one side overlooking the fountain, and condos on top of the South end. If the crazy Winstead's parking could be rearranged, the Southeast corner of Cleaver and Main could be used for something also.

[enough]

good discussion. it's obvious that we need to be thinking about a lot more than simply running streetcars down the middle of main street.

[1] - streetcar phase ii is a terrific opportunity to re-think the whole 47th / ward parkway / main / nichols parkway intersection, including the tennis courts in the middle. last time around the traffic engineers "won" and created a traffic mess that's totally hostile to people-not-in-cars. this time we need to put people first, especially people-on-foot-and-on-transit.

[2] - another major issue is whether to use broadway for the streetcar south of linwood. sure, a lot of people think it's a settled matter because of the jim nutter opposition, but that was years ago. putting the streetcar on a "broad way" and potential "great street," one that goes right past the westport district, really appeals to me. broadway has the added advantage of a less challenging (i.e., more nearly flat) vertical profile, which means it's more amenable to pedestrian use as well as easier for streetcars to negotiate. we should have a full and fair comparison of main vs. broadway through midtown, just as we did for main vs. grand downtown.

[flyingember]

The top of my list would be a small but high-end grocery store (like the size of the Fairway Hen House), a high-end spa/fitness center, a Kansas City tourism office, a rooftop restaurant on one side overlooking the fountain, and condos on top of the South end. If the crazy Winstead's parking could be rearranged, the Southeast corner of Cleaver and Main could be used for something also.

why do we need another grocery store 4 blocks from another one being planned at 51st? that really doesn't make sense.

kansas city has a tourism office on the plaza already too. I believe it's run by highwoods as customer service but it serves the same purpose.

I know you're throwing out ideas but this is exactly the reason not to say we need to tear something out. because we shouldn't be executing any specific location along the line for a specific purpose.

also, don't forget the possibility that spot can't be anything else. One should question why it wasn't developed into something in the past 90 years?



the SE corner of Clever and Main is part of a continuous rail banked transit route owned by the KCATA from 85th to Westport. given we're wanting to put a transit line in the area cutting that up seems like a very bad idea.

I like the idea of a jog into westport and then down this row to 51st. with the right signaling this could be utilized for streetcars again and be an express section, it is a busy car segment after all and adding streetcars would increase congestion.

[flyingember]

good discussion. it's obvious that we need to be thinking about a lot more than simply running streetcars down the middle of main street.

[1] - streetcar phase ii is a terrific opportunity to re-think the whole 47th / ward parkway / main / nichols parkway intersection, including the tennis courts in the middle. last time around the traffic engineers "won" and created a traffic mess that's totally hostile to people-not-in-cars. this time we need to put people first, especially people-on-foot-and-on-transit.

[2] - another major issue is whether to use broadway for the streetcar south of linwood. sure, a lot of people think it's a settled matter because of the jim nutter opposition, but that was years ago. putting the streetcar on a "broad way" and potential "great street," one that goes right past the westport district, really appeals to me. broadway has the added advantage of a less challenging (i.e., more nearly flat) vertical profile, which means it's more amenable to pedestrian use as well as easier for streetcars to negotiate. we should have a full and fair comparison of main vs. broadway through midtown, just as we did for main vs. grand downtown.

2. is a good point. why does Main have to be the street?

Main is closer to the east side. moving it to broadway makes the line less about transi for midtown and more about "white" midtown. there's more bus lines with a closer transfer potential if you use Main.

maybe this should be cut into three segments for discussion
north of 31st, 31st to westport, westport to 51st.

each has different benefits for different streets

like north of 31st Main is better because it goes by Crown Center and the Liberty Memorial

also think about existing services on Main, there's one notable one.

going by a Home Depot seems like a good place to put the line to. It's not like you need a car to buy screws. Most of the condo needs are in the realms of a few cans of paint, some shelf hanging supplies, a light fixture or other thing that can be carried. we also need space to put a park and ride lot/bus transfer point and that is a good size to do it in.

[taxi]

SAVE OUR PLAZA!!!

[bobbyhawks]

why do we need another grocery store 4 blocks from another one being planned at 51st? that really doesn't make sense.

Fair point. I haven't really been paying attention to these conversations, but I thought something right on the Plaza would make more sense than by 51st. Folks who would live near that store are just a five minute drive from the stores in Brookside. The Plaza location would be a more walkable destination for condo dwellers and hotel visitors.

kansas city has a tourism office on the plaza already too. I believe it's run by highwoods as customer service but it serves the same purpose.

I am aware of this, but I think having a location right next to the streetcar stop makes more sense. I'd like to see one or two other similar locations along the route, especially near 12th/13th/14th and Main.

the SE corner of Clever and Main is part of a continuous rail banked transit route owned by the KCATA from 85th to Westport. given we're wanting to put a transit line in the area cutting that up seems like a very bad idea.

The weird parking lot behind Grand Street is? Main transitioning to Brookside is insanely wide, so I don't really see the need to reserve space on the side of the road for the streetcar.

As for moving the line to Broadway, my thoughts are that, once you start to jog the line to matchup with other already concentrated areas, you have lost control of the line and are back to a finagled bus route that cannot be unfinagled. I also think that Main St. serves to gain much more from the line than would Broadway, let alone all of the benefits of a less complicated straight shot. If we want to match the line up only with our areas that already show best density-wise, then I agree it would make sense to jog over at Armour. Then you are taking two arteries that people use to get from the loop to the burbs and putting streetcars in part of the way on both streets (even if you cutover at US).

[KCMax]

why do we need another grocery store 4 blocks from another one being planned at 51st? that really doesn't make sense.

Fair point. I haven't really been paying attention to these conversations, but I thought something right on the Plaza would make more sense than by 51st. Folks who would live near that store are just a five minute drive from the stores in Brookside. The Plaza location would be a more walkable destination for condo dwellers and hotel visitors.

There is also a health foods store just north of the Plaza. I don't think the Plaza needs a full-fledge grocery store, but I think a small convenience store would work. Not convenience store like Quik Trip, but like a small bodega that sells a few groceries where people can grab a few essential items.