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KCPowercat
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCPowercat »

Seems like the stops have been decided? What is the public really getting to influence here?
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by scooterj »

I'm guessing whoever came up with "one auto lane in each direction" for the north section hasn't looked at traffic patterns in the afternoon rush hour, when traffic backs up in all three lanes for multiple blocks, usually at least from 31st to the Federal Reserve but sometimes from Linwood all the way back to McGee Trafficway. I'm not really understanding from these maps why the streetcar needs two lanes in each direction in a segment where there is almost never any curbside parking in use? A road diet makes sense in other areas, but not in this section where there really aren't (m)any viable north-south alternatives.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by beautyfromashes »

Dump the bus lane/parking. Shouldn’t need the bus and parking is only used consistently in a very few spots.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by horizons82 »

Has it been stated anywhere what the operational difference of shared center-running vs a dedicated lane from 30th to Cleaver?

While seeing shared travel makes me apprehensive, after further thought I'm not sure how much is gained by giving a dedicated lane vs shared center through there.

If anything, I'm thinking the parking should be ditched, but give it over to a wider/landscaped median & waiting platform; not dedicating a lane to the streetcar.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings »

beautyfromashes wrote:Why can't we just leave the stops like the Max stops are now? There is going to be a lot more development along the line including a large increase in residents in more dense buildings. Better to have too much capacity and let the development catch up to it.
I think the the idea is more that the UMKC extension really shifts more towards being "transit focused". As in streetcar becomes the spine of transit service in the area/greater KC. Too many stops reduces the effectiveness of this as a viable transit alternative to things like a car. IMHO. MAX has too many stops. Additionally, it is easy to build stops but hard to take them away. Better to start with this and build more if they are truly needed than build too many and fight the vocal few who actually use them + waste funds.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

KCPowercat wrote:Seems like the stops have been decided? What is the public really getting to influence here?
31st v Linwood and lane choice, for now. Lots of details to decide later.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

scooterj wrote:I'm guessing whoever came up with "one auto lane in each direction" for the north section hasn't looked at traffic patterns in the afternoon rush hour, when traffic backs up in all three lanes for multiple blocks, usually at least from 31st to the Federal Reserve but sometimes from Linwood all the way back to McGee Trafficway. I'm not really understanding from these maps why the streetcar needs two lanes in each direction in a segment where there is almost never any curbside parking in use? A road diet makes sense in other areas, but not in this section where there really aren't (m)any viable north-south alternatives.
Sorry, we're no longer designing for our super-short peaks. The assessment on lane needs was done by legit traffic engineers. Main will get a road diet.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

horizons82 wrote:Has it been stated anywhere what the operational difference of shared center-running vs a dedicated lane from 30th to Cleaver?
It will be hard to estimate now until we know what the road configuration is.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by chingon »

DaveKCMO wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:Center running mixed traffic only option?
For the middle section, yes. The north and south sections have exclusive ROW -- north for curb or center, south for center or CCROW.

CCROW should be preferred for the south section because it will be cheaper to construct and that's what the CCROW is for.
I’m torn. I like the CCROW because that is indeed what it’s for, but few streets in town need road calming more than that stretch of Brookside “Boulevard”.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

You can still calm BKS BLVD without the streetcar.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by beautyfromashes »

chingon wrote:
I’m torn. I like the CCROW because that is indeed what it’s for, but few streets in town need road calming more than that stretch of Brookside “Boulevard”.
I kind of like center running for the south section. Eliminating the medians at 47th will cut down on the excessive panhandling in that area. I’ve seen ‘turf wars’ at the intersections there with people trying to get the ‘prime spot’.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by scooterj »

DaveKCMO wrote:
scooterj wrote:I'm guessing whoever came up with "one auto lane in each direction" for the north section hasn't looked at traffic patterns in the afternoon rush hour, when traffic backs up in all three lanes for multiple blocks, usually at least from 31st to the Federal Reserve but sometimes from Linwood all the way back to McGee Trafficway. I'm not really understanding from these maps why the streetcar needs two lanes in each direction in a segment where there is almost never any curbside parking in use? A road diet makes sense in other areas, but not in this section where there really aren't (m)any viable north-south alternatives.
Sorry, we're no longer designing for our super-short peaks. The assessment on lane needs was done by legit traffic engineers. Main will get a road diet.

Those super short peaks will turn into super long peaks when no one is able to get out of the Federal Reserve, and the streetcar is repeatedly blocked by people trying to make turns into or out of that traffic. Main is 7 lanes wide here, why do 4 of them need taken away? Removing two I can see, but four is going to be a disaster. Again, there are no other viable north-south alternatives through this section that anyone who works along those blocks can use.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

That does not square with the city's complete streets ordinance. That stretch also happens to be one of the least friendly for cyclists and pedestrians, as well as transit users.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember »

DaveKCMO wrote:That does not square with the city's complete streets ordinance. That stretch also happens to be one of the least friendly for cyclists and pedestrians, as well as transit users.
I don't really like driving down it either
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCPowercat »

Fed has an exit to Wyandotte....use that and go to 31st....easy access to multiple north south options.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember »

KCPowercat wrote:Fed has an exit to Wyandotte....use that and go to 31st....easy access to multiple north south options.
You don't need to block entrances with mixed running. Ban left turns across the track either to or from Main. Then redo light cycles so you have dedicated NB vs SB periods and allow u-turns at all lights. everyone SB goes, then everyone NB.

Someone NB hitting the Main St Fed entrance would double back SB at Grand. Someone turning south (left) from home depot would make a right, change lanes and U-turn at Linwood.

It dramatically reduces interaction points and worries about someone trying to beat the train.

If the train stop is usually on the far side of the intersection the train can be blocks away before the light changes, leaving plenty of room to make that turn

We basically would be building Houston's rail design but without the dedicated lane. They solved this problem already.
Last edited by flyingember on Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by scooterj »

KCPowercat wrote:Fed has an exit to Wyandotte....use that and go to 31st....easy access to multiple north south options.
That's good. Send them out to an unsignalized intersection that has poor sight lines during a time of day that 31st is nearly bumper-to-bumper in both directions through there. So they can then head to north-south options where they can't make left turns during rush hour. Route all that traffic through a park. Great move for pedestrian safety. :roll:

I just don't understand how no one else sees that this is setting up for a scenario that is no different from what is currently happening from Truman to 11th with all the garage entrances.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCPowercat »

Guess I'm putting faith in experts over anecdotes of fire and brimstone for the poor Federal reserve worker.

I don't know if the Wyandotte option is better, just saying there is an option if leaving out if main is so horrible.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings »

scooterj wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:
scooterj wrote:I'm guessing whoever came up with "one auto lane in each direction" for the north section hasn't looked at traffic patterns in the afternoon rush hour, when traffic backs up in all three lanes for multiple blocks, usually at least from 31st to the Federal Reserve but sometimes from Linwood all the way back to McGee Trafficway. I'm not really understanding from these maps why the streetcar needs two lanes in each direction in a segment where there is almost never any curbside parking in use? A road diet makes sense in other areas, but not in this section where there really aren't (m)any viable north-south alternatives.
Sorry, we're no longer designing for our super-short peaks. The assessment on lane needs was done by legit traffic engineers. Main will get a road diet.

Those super short peaks will turn into super long peaks when no one is able to get out of the Federal Reserve, and the streetcar is repeatedly blocked by people trying to make turns into or out of that traffic. Main is 7 lanes wide here, why do 4 of them need taken away? Removing two I can see, but four is going to be a disaster. Again, there are no other viable north-south alternatives through this section that anyone who works along those blocks can use.
maybe they can start walking, biking, and public transitting to and from work
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by beautyfromashes »

scooterj wrote: I just don't understand how no one else sees that this is setting up for a scenario that is no different from what is currently happening from Truman to 11th with all the garage entrances.
It’s going to be terrible for traffic in Midtown and I don’t trust that ‘experts’ have it figured out. No left turns on all of Main will be a mess for residents. How is someone going south on Main supposed to get to their home in Hyde Park or going North get to a home west of Main? You’re creating a SW Trafficway type barrier. But, I get the feeling that those in charge don’t really care. They talk about commute tunes but really their talking about their own commute times or are more worried about getting quickly from DT to shopping on The Plaza. Not saying I’m against the streetcar, just that residents concerns are being listened to but not a deciding factor in design.
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