Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Transportation topics in KC
kcjak
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by kcjak »

DaveKCMO wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:56 pm
We're doing a lot of stuff: https://ridekc.org/blog/strategic-plan- ... for-ridekc
Hard to believe Troost MAX has been around since 2011 already!!

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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by flyingember »

Bus stop improvement idea at the Sheraton Crown Center on McGee

it's 5 lanes wide today.
There's two lanes each direction and a center turn lane/left turn lane. Both outside lanes are marked no parking zones people completely ignore.

Move the bus stop to be right out front of the north end of Sheraton on a center lane island between the garage and valet garage entrance. This will also block wrong way entrance to their driveway.
Install a brand new mid-block ped crossing to the stop, there is no ped crossing today at 23rd/McGee, not even curb cuts. It also will connect to the stairs/path to Grand.

Take the outside SB lane and turn it into full time parking, add a new bus stop bump out, a scooter/bike corral and such. Net parking increase, less lanes, more uses improved. Move this bus stop closer to the NB stop to take advantage of the crossing/ped route

Take the outside NB lane and turn the part outside 2301 into full time parking. The rest turn into valet, large bus and taxi parking and parking for hotel vendors. Expand the sidewalk back to full size where it's not for valet today

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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by shinatoo »

Just a thought on the free bus fare. How about starting with making the all the MAX Lines free, and adding an east/west MAX route?
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earthling
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by earthling »

Potential MAX E/W lines:
- Independence Ave
- SW Blvd to 18th/Vine+
- 31st
- 39th

Seems Indie Ave and 39th have highest ridership.

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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by DaveKCMO »

Here's the editorial: https://www.kansascity.com/opinion/edit ... 75432.html

Planning for this hasn't really started yet, but safety and equity issues have been discussed. Transit is covered by lots of regulations (ADA, Civil Rights Act, etc.) so it will take some time to figure it all out while someone finds the money.

That being said, the first 90 days of Prospect MAX will be free to ride!

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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by shinatoo »

I for one look forward to Kansas City being the flag bearer for this. I think it will show a huge increase in ridership. When it does, hopefully, the feds will start funding fare replacement for cities nationwide. I think it will be the most effective way to get cars off the road.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by flyingember »

shinatoo wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:41 am
I for one look forward to Kansas City being the flag bearer for this. I think it will show a huge increase in ridership. When it does, hopefully, the feds will start funding fare replacement for cities nationwide. I think it will be the most effective way to get cars off the road.
You're not thinking the right direction. We don't want it to get cars off the road, we want this plan to succeed because it changes the discussion on welfare programs away from being a dirty word to one of how can we provide general welfare and help the most needy and the city.

The selling point is in this plan all benefit, regardless of income, because anyone could get on the bus for free. Look at the streetcar model. Imagine if every bus route was like this where people would use it to park once and get around. This is how we stop the "every business needs 15 parking spots" zoning we have today. Until we can afford a bus system with way more commuter routes, getting cars off the road is dramatically harder. Reducing parking demand is a key first step to increasing density and free is the easiest way to reduce the friction people have to changing modes.

That it would save transit dependent families money is just a huge bonus.

Look at that in terms of the results. If *every* building in the city could be built just 10% denser the income increase could dwarf the cost to provide the bus for free and now there's money coming in to expand the system. And that density increase is what we need to provide affordable housing to more people.

Focusing on cars misses how many dominoes of city policy come back to business demand for parking spots that don't get use 90% of the day.
Last edited by flyingember on Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

earthling
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by earthling »

DaveKCMO wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:25 am
That being said, the first 90 days of Prospect MAX will be free to ride!
Maybe they'll find a way to make that permanent, and Troost. Wouldn't mind seeing Main St MAX free until streetcar opens.

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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by earthling »

From article...
Naysayers will point out the obvious: Free bus rides aren’t really free. Taxpayers subsidize the service, providing KCATA with about $60 million a year from sales taxes in Kansas City.
So it may as well be free to ride loaded with riders than most outer lines more than half empty every run, many lines are entirely empty at times.

I suspect one thing that has prevented major cities pursuing city wide free service is that it may attract countless vagrants from around the country to the first city that tries it. KC wants to be an experimental lab and should go for it (as a one or two year experiment) even if that happens. Could always end the experiment if causing more problems than solving.

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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by flyingember »

People said the same thing about vagrants on the streetcar. The solution is to make everyone get off at the turnaround point and get back on. Being a vagrant isn't an issue but if someone is being abusive or abusing the service by taking seats from others, this gives them a chance to force them off and refuse further service.

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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by shinatoo »

flyingember wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:11 am
shinatoo wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:41 am
I for one look forward to Kansas City being the flag bearer for this. I think it will show a huge increase in ridership. When it does, hopefully, the feds will start funding fare replacement for cities nationwide. I think it will be the most effective way to get cars off the road.
You're not thinking the right direction. We don't want it to get cars off the road, we want this plan to succeed because it changes the discussion on welfare programs away from being a dirty word to one of how can we provide general welfare and help the most needy and the city.

The selling point is in this plan all benefit, regardless of income, because anyone could get on the bus for free. Look at the streetcar model. Imagine if every bus route was like this where people would use it to park once and get around. This is how we stop the "every business needs 15 parking spots" zoning we have today. Until we can afford a bus system with way more commuter routes, getting cars off the road is dramatically harder. Reducing parking demand is a key first step to increasing density and free is the easiest way to reduce the friction people have to changing modes.

That it would save transit dependent families money is just a huge bonus.

Look at that in terms of the results. If *every* building in the city could be built just 10% denser the income increase could dwarf the cost to provide the bus for free and now there's money coming in to expand the system. And that density increase is what we need to provide affordable housing to more people.

Focusing on cars misses how many dominoes of city policy come back to business demand for parking spots that don't get use 90% of the day.
Lower congestion, saving on roads, environmental impact and general welfare are the benefits and will resonate with voters in that order. My order would be reversed, but selling it to the general public you should start with lower congestion and money savings.

As for taxes, fares only make up 10% of the budget anyway. it's not a big hit to the pocketbook.
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earthling
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by earthling »

flyingember wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:41 am
People said the same thing about vagrants on the streetcar. The solution is to make everyone get off at the turnaround point and get back on. Being a vagrant isn't an issue but if someone is being abusive or abusing the service by taking seats from others, this gives them a chance to force them off and refuse further service.
Yes, it's an unnecessary fear as the streetcar has shown but I suspect it's still a major reason many cities won't do it as most larger cities already have serious homeless/vagrant issues (KC's is relatively small). Being first will especially draw attention. KC free streetcar isn't nationally known to be so doesn't draw huge attention to vagrants around country. KC should still try it for entire bus system (at least KCMO/KCK) as 1-2 year experiment and continue if the benefits are shown to outweigh any potential downsides (and there probably will be some downsides).
Last edited by earthling on Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

mean
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by mean »

I seriously doubt the massive homeless populations in warm cities like LA and Miami are going to migrate to the midwest for free buses. Might attract a few extras from surrounding suburbs, Lawrence, etc., especially during winter months, but I don't really see it as a huge problem. Certainly not in contrast with the huge benefit.

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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by earthling »

Not saying I agree with the sentiment, just that it's likely a reason some cities won't pursue it - especially those with serious homeless issues already coming from elsewhere. But hypothetically if it did occur, it wouldn't necessary draw from warm cities. There are many in all winter cities too that may find their way to KC for free transit (or first city with city wide free transit). Agree the benefits should still hugely outweigh that possibility, hence worth a 1-2 year experiment.

mean
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by mean »

Sounds kind of like the 2020 version of the 1980 excuse that we don't want transit because all the city criminals will use it to come rob us, which is a dramatically less offensive wording of something I was literally told as a child. I know you're not making that argument, but I think it deserves about the same amount of consideration (which is to say, none) and ridicule (which is to say, lots).

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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by earthling »

^Generally agree but it's an aspect that will likely be brought up if KC seriously pursues this. Can prepare for that conversation with the city by discussing it here first. And might need to sell it as an experiment rather than initially permanent.

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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by smh »

mean wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:12 am
Sounds kind of like the 2020 version of the 19802014 excuse that we don't want transit because all the city criminals will use it to come rob us, which is a dramatically less offensive wording of something I was literally told as a child. I know you're not making that argument, but I think it deserves about the same amount of consideration (which is to say, none) and ridicule (which is to say, lots).
FTFY. Remember when the hoodlums were going to ride the streetcar to BKS? :shock:

mean
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by mean »

Touche. Pretty sure I busted out my childhood anecdote for that one, too. I guess some things never change.

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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by chingon »

Re: MAX Off-Board Fare Collection PLEASE!
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by chingon » Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:22 pm
Why don't they just make all public transportation free to riders, subsidized by taxes? How much of their income, percentage-wise, actually comes from fares? Or free within a specified zone, or specified routes?

First off, suck it Star Editorial Board, you carpetbagging, plagiarizing Johnny-come-latelys.

Second, IIRC, this not-so-original idea of mine was roundly panned in '07.

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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by rxlexi »

First off, suck it Star Editorial Board, you carpetbagging, plagiarizing Johnny-come-latelys.

Second, IIRC, this not-so-original idea of mine was roundly panned in '07.
Hear Hear! For the record I am 100% on-board with a fareless metro system within KCMO (or at least along major routes), and think it would be transformative. Also, really shouldn't be THAT difficult to pay for; can't imagine fares cover any more than a small % of operating costs, and for the friction they add to the experience, it would be well worth doing away with them.

Streetcar proves this is doable on a small scale, and the benefits appear to be well worth it in terms of increased ridership and public perception (when comparing to other modern streetcar routes of similar length/scale). Albeit streetcar is surrounded by a large amount of high-value commercial real estate and business usage, unlike many of the less dense, far flung neighborhoods served by metro bus.

The biggest issue of course would be the massive, anti-American, hate the freeloaders sentiment that comes with increasing taxes and/or corporate dollars to provide a social good such as civic mobility. Nonetheless hope to see it in my lifetime, and it would be one place KC could become a leader in something useful, especially with the benefit of experience on the streetcar route.

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