Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

[DaveKCMO]

Clearly you've all had your projects scored by the Federal Transit Administration!

Thats why we have earmarks now!

Any project of the size you're discussing could not be funded by a single earmark that allows you to bypass the rest of the federal process.

[normalthings]

Clearly you've all had your projects scored by the Federal Transit Administration!

Thats why we have earmarks now!

Any project of the size you're discussing could not be funded by a single earmark that allows you to bypass the rest of the federal process.

That is fair. A large system in one go would not be able to land a single ear mark. However, a project around $1 billion would be doable with an earmark. Jackson County Rail showed they can support a $400 million capital program and it appears earmarks of $600 million are doable now (see Lenexa highway expansion). That’s your financing plan for a $1 billion downtown to Lee’s Summit electric rail line. Only a 60% earmark when I seem to remember that 80% earmarks for transit were once common.

As you noted, Independence Ave. scores well for the federal grant program. We would seek to use a standard federal grant to cover that line. Hopefully stimulus will open up 80% grants again.

[DaveKCMO]

Here are the Locally Preferred Alternatives for the two main routes Jackson County looked at (2012 dollars):

East DMU Line at a Glance
Construction Cost: $327M - $434M
Annual Operating Cost: $10,700,000
End to End Travel Time: 35minutes, 15 seconds
Estimated Daily Ridership: 1,150-2,800

Southeast DMU Line at a Glance
Construction Cost: $170M - $225M
Annual Operating Cost: $4,300,000
End to End Travel Time: 22 minutes 59 seconds
Estimated Daily Ridership: 500-1,000

At the time, a 1-cent sales tax in just Jackson County would have generated $80 million per year. Both of these projects would have not scored well for federal funding because of the high capital cost per passenger.

We really should be avoiding multiple high capital cost transit projects as a region unless (a) the feds increase their match, which has only been shrinking or (b) we develop some new innovative funding model that reduces the local funding burden. The reason for this is that once you pay for operating and debt service, you have little left for running all of the connecting routes that get people to the higher speed service.

If you go all in on rail, you're not solving the job access issues many have claimed our current system isn't addressing -- especially if you just replace bus with rail in the same corridor.

[normalthings]

Here are the Locally Preferred Alternatives for the two main routes Jackson County looked at (2012 dollars):

East DMU Line at a Glance
Construction Cost: $327M - $434M
Annual Operating Cost: $10,700,000
End to End Travel Time: 35minutes, 15 seconds
Estimated Daily Ridership: 1,150-2,800

Southeast DMU Line at a Glance
Construction Cost: $170M - $225M
Annual Operating Cost: $4,300,000
End to End Travel Time: 22 minutes 59 seconds
Estimated Daily Ridership: 500-1,000

At the time, a 1-cent sales tax in just Jackson County would have generated $80 million per year. Both of these projects would have not scored well for federal funding because of the high capital cost per passenger.

We really should be avoiding multiple high capital cost transit projects as a region unless (a) the feds increase their match, which has only been shrinking or (b) we develop some new innovative funding model that reduces the local funding burden. The reason for this is that once you pay for operating and debt service, you have little left for running all of the connecting routes that get people to the higher speed service.

If you go all in on rail, you're not solving the job access issues many have claimed our current system isn't addressing -- especially if you just replace bus with rail in the same corridor.

Would a happy medium be rail to VA or Truman Sports Complex with bus service that feeds into it? I would think that both the VA and TSC are well-positioned to be bus terminals.

or

Do you still see rail being "dead" after UMKC and maybe NKC?

[DaveKCMO]

Here are the Locally Preferred Alternatives for the two main routes Jackson County looked at (2012 dollars):

East DMU Line at a Glance
Construction Cost: $327M - $434M
Annual Operating Cost: $10,700,000
End to End Travel Time: 35minutes, 15 seconds
Estimated Daily Ridership: 1,150-2,800

Southeast DMU Line at a Glance
Construction Cost: $170M - $225M
Annual Operating Cost: $4,300,000
End to End Travel Time: 22 minutes 59 seconds
Estimated Daily Ridership: 500-1,000

At the time, a 1-cent sales tax in just Jackson County would have generated $80 million per year. Both of these projects would have not scored well for federal funding because of the high capital cost per passenger.

We really should be avoiding multiple high capital cost transit projects as a region unless (a) the feds increase their match, which has only been shrinking or (b) we develop some new innovative funding model that reduces the local funding burden. The reason for this is that once you pay for operating and debt service, you have little left for running all of the connecting routes that get people to the higher speed service.

If you go all in on rail, you're not solving the job access issues many have claimed our current system isn't addressing -- especially if you just replace bus with rail in the same corridor.

Would a happy medium be rail to VA or Truman Sports Complex with bus service that feeds into it? I would think that both the VA and TSC are well-positioned to be bus terminals.

or

Do you still see rail being "dead" after UMKC and maybe NKC?

Don't mistake pragmatism for skepticism. I just want to make sure everyone's aware of the tradeoffs and how little financial capability this region has at its disposal. I love a good fantasy map, but that's not really what the conversation needs right now (it need a regional funding mechanism that can realistically fund way more service than we're offering today -- regardless of mode).

[normalthings]

Yea, but I guess what is a “realistic” amount of rail to you?

A follow-up, how was Jackson County going to hit 1% sales tax?

[DaveKCMO]

Yea, but I guess what is a “realistic” amount of rail to you?

A follow-up, how was Jackson County going to hit 1% sales tax?

It will depend entirely on how the regional funding conversation goes. I don't want to box myself in, but personally I'd be satisfied if we just built the River-Crown-Plaza as rail and did high quality bus or flex service throughout the region at a low capital cost. That segment was studied to death and was a very known quantity with the feds. The rest is not.

Jackson County would have needed a public vote, which was planned for August 2012 (IIRC) but never materialized because the situation fell apart with the railroads -- yet another cautionary tale. We did end up acquiring the Rock Island, but that didn't include the "last mile" into the urban core. I seem to recall they were going to leverage the regional investment district legislation (which was capped at 1/2-cent) and that the whole cent didn't poll as well as the half cent.

[FangKC]

Was the "last mile" through the East Bottoms to River Market, or the trench to Union Station?

[normalthings]

Was the "last mile" through the East Bottoms to River Market, or the trench to Union Station?

Jackson County proposed East Bottoms. Union Station was just too expensive.

I like the idea of using Linwood and Gillham to connect downtown and Rock Island

[alejandro46]

KCATA and Marc need check polling numbers.

I don’t think bus moves the needle. Not sure rail does either, BUT the kicker is rail generally goes hand and hand with development. I am definitely pro bus but just mot sure if most voters agree.

[flyingember]

KCATA and Marc need check polling numbers.

I don’t think bus moves the needle. Not sure rail does either, BUT the kicker is rail generally goes hand and hand with development. I am definitely pro bus but just mot sure if most voters agree.

I think it's less about being for/against and more that for too long the bus service hasn't been reliable within someone's schedule.

I absolutely could bike to a bus stop and make it to the grocery store on it.
But on a Saturday it's too likely a one hour trip becomes three hours depending on how the bus is running.

Even for better routes, they sometimes don't run on the weekend or run less often. So someone who drives to work isn't going to rely on the bus for the weekend.


We have a very real civic opinion showing between the two. NKC is potentially willing to spend tens of millions to get reliability through the streetcar, something the bus company has never provided them.

That 15 minutes service could be provided for them with dramatically less cost and the bus system redesign didn't is telling.

[GRID]

Commuter rail makes almost no sense at all in KC. It would be such a colossal waste of money to move so few people and would only encourage low density sprawl. There are only a few cities in America where commuter rail makes sense and is implemented in a way that encourages smart growth and transit friendly development and is not just peak hour parking lot service. Even here in DC, commuter rail is terribly implemented, barely useable and way too costly per rider.

KC needs to build up a decent urban core transit system probably using buses and streetcar and build a regional system with buses.

There is no reason for heavy rail commuter rail in KC. Even light rail is not really in the cards anymore. Too much of the workforce has migrated to Johnson County for a light rail system to make sense anymore.

KC just won't have that intense need to move people to and from major focal points like you see in Denver, MSP, Seattle and new cities like Charlotte and Nashville still have a major transit/employment focus on their downtown. KC no longer has that.

So build streetcars in the city for those that do live and work there, but do it right. And build a higher quality bus system. I know KC has the max routes, but outside of that, it's kind of a small town bus system. KC's bus system (bus types, transit centers, park and rides etc) is something more like you would find in a metro of well under 1 million, not a metro of over 2 million.

[alejandro46]

I think there is a desire for light rail Streetcar + type service by a plurality of the population and agree, the RideKC bus just doesn't work for most people at all and would add hours of travel time.
I know KCATA and their consultants are doing research right now. If there was a regional rail build out plan proposed for the next 50 years and all 4 counties are asked to approve, I would say the odds would be in our favor. Connecting potential hubs within the greater metro area and RI RR in JackCo would be something clear and tangible to present to voters and they could see exactly where their money is going. I mean for gods sake, I kind of can't believe the GO Bonds passed with how vague/opaque that the measure was written.

[kas1]

Commuter rail makes almost no sense at all in KC. It would be such a colossal waste of money to move so few people

This is the crux of the issue. Commuter rail would be fine if you could just pour some concrete slabs for the stations and buy some trains. Should be nice and cheap. But infrastructure costs in this country are completely absurd. Somehow it costs billions of dollars to add passenger service on existing rail lines. Until there's reform, it's just hard to support hardly any transit projects, even though transit projects are desperately needed. (The streetcar, I'm sorry to say, is also a colossal waste of money. Half a billion dollars to replace a few miles of bus service with something that's not really much different than a bus.)

For commuter rail to be successful you'd really need to electrify the lines because diesel units have terrible acceleration/deceleration. iirc the obsolete proposal had something like a 90 minute one-way trip from Lee's Summit to downtown? Nobody will ever use that. But I can't even imagine how much the plan would have cost if it involved electrifying everything. Even more billions of dollars. And in the end it would still be a service which doesn't offer any real advantages over an express bus that takes the highway.

[earthling]

Attracting streetcar riders to bus is the challenge. Have been suggesting to attract streetcar riders to bus, offer a temp free bus line from Union Station to Westport/Plaza up until streetcar extension to UMKC is complete (maybe the new 40 line Dave mentioned). When streetcar arrives at US, the streetcar should make an announcement about free 'streetcar extender bus' to Westport/Plaza in front of US. That should encourage many bus timid people to try it, especially when it's a natural next step and desirable line to use. Suburban visitors using this might then give their own bus lines a try into the city, for events if anything.

[flyingember]

Half a billion dollars to replace a few miles of bus service with something that's not really much different than a bus.)

What bus service do you think commuter rail would replace?

The 2002 MARC study was a route all the way to Iola, KS.

There's no bus following the Rock Island line out to Lee's Summit.
There's no bus following 210 Hwy

A few have service but most the routes looked at don't

[flyingember]

Attracting streetcar riders to bus is the challenge. Have been suggesting to attract streetcar riders to bus, offer a temp free bus line from Union Station to Westport/Plaza up until streetcar extension to UMKC is complete (maybe the new 40 line Dave mentioned). When streetcar arrives at US, the streetcar should make an announcement about free 'streetcar extender bus' to Westport/Plaza in front of US. That should encourage many bus timid people to try it, especially when it's a natural next step and desirable line to use. Suburban visitors using this might then give their own bus lines a try into the city, for events if anything.

That's not bad. The Plaza stop reducing friction to change systems would enable continuing this post-2025

A free bus on a tight circulor route that connects at that stop could be very popular.

[GRID]

Half a billion dollars to replace a few miles of bus service with something that's not really much different than a bus.)

What bus service do you think commuter rail would replace?

The 2002 MARC study was a route all the way to Iola, KS.

There's no bus following the Rock Island line out to Lee's Summit.
There's no bus following 210 Hwy

A few have service but most the routes looked at don't

I used to be a daily rider of the Blue Springs Express route and followed the funding, politics and ridership of all the suburban express routes very closely.

It was a relatively poor service, but still very well used for what it was.

They used city buses on these routes when they should be actual commuter buses. I don't think KC even has actual suburban coach buses, but they are much more comfortable on such trips. (I use them here in DC area and they are nice). Also, due to funding issues, the buses would often be standing room only with 15 people or more standing on a city bus in interstate stop and go traffic. Never enough trips to give you any sort of flexibility to leave early etc.

Every year it was a funding nightmare as each city (Liberty, Blue Springs, Lee's Summit etc) had to find money to fund the routes from the general city budget.

My point is there is demand for such a service, but KC does not have very good funding/service for reginal transit.

Commuter Rail would take those same riders and put them on a very expensive rail system. The riders that would be gained with rail would likely be offset by losing bus riders that don't want to spend the extra time on transit.

The ride from the suburbs into downtown KC is just not that long of a drive nor is there much of a delay. But if you have to drive to a train, wait for the train, take a train downtown (which will take the same time as a bus on the interstate) and then have to use another form of transit to reach your final destination. The commuter rail is not going to run down Grand and drop you off at your office.

I can ramble on and on but my point is to spend the money on a much better bus system and related infrastructure/vehicles and you will get more riders than a train at a fraction of the cost.

If you are gong to spend hundreds of millions on a commuter rail line to move 500-2000 people a day, then you may as will spend a billion or two and build a proper full blown light rail commuter hybrid line that can run all day long, serve people along the entire line and move 30-50,000 people a day.

[flyingember]

The ride from the suburbs into downtown KC is just not that long of a drive nor is there much of a delay. But if you have to drive to a train, wait for the train, take a train downtown (which will take the same time as a bus on the interstate) and then have to use another form of transit to reach your final destination. The commuter rail is not going to run down Grand and drop you off at your office.

The streetcar is standard gauge. It's not impossible, maybe not probable, that the commuter system could run on streetcar tracks downtown.

Maybe the answer is more bus lanes. Because today the bus goes just as fast as all the cars. When US 71 SB is backed up the bus is too.

The core idea behind rail is it's not stuck in the same traffic, so we need to take busses out of traffic.

[GRID]

The ride from the suburbs into downtown KC is just not that long of a drive nor is there much of a delay. But if you have to drive to a train, wait for the train, take a train downtown (which will take the same time as a bus on the interstate) and then have to use another form of transit to reach your final destination. The commuter rail is not going to run down Grand and drop you off at your office.

The streetcar is standard gauge. It's not impossible, maybe not probable, that the commuter system could run on streetcar tracks downtown.

Maybe the answer is more bus lanes. Because today the bus goes just as fast as all the cars. When US 71 SB is backed up the bus is too.

The core idea behind rail is it's not stuck in the same traffic, so we need to take busses out of traffic.

The rail would have to be heavily modified and straightened and put into more of a dedicated right of way. Basically it would need to be rebuilt in most places and that point, you may as well just build a whole new rail line down Grand or something.

I-70 and I-35 both have very minimal delays. From Olathe or Blue Springs, the delay is rarely more than 10 minutes. Crashes in KC cause delays, not volume for the most part. I-70 in KC should be 8 lanes simply because it's an urban area and that would allow for one lane for HOV. But building funding to build bus/hov lanes seems like a pipe dream. Although the interstates in StL are much nicer, wider etc than KC, so it can be done.

I just don't see the point. It would be different if KC already had a robust regional bus system and the next step was commuter rail, light rail etc.