Official: KCMO Light Rail

[DaveKCMO]

yeah... i can see this "not voting for a specific route" thing coming back to bite everyone in the ass.  How much more time will be spent studying the specific route even if the thing is passed?  Will the big wigs start moving behind the scenes and mess with the route so that it stops at their front entrance like the MAX does, and make it a shit light rail route?

Especially considering what happened to the MAX, i don't trust the council to back the ATA and consultants on following the best route over a meandering politically motivated one.

fortunately, the significantly higher price tag necessitates more scrutiny from the FTA. BRT is still a bus, which is a good and bad thing when it comes to routing, as you've noted. fixed guideway can't be moved, so route and stop selection must be backed up with significant commuter ridership data (not just tourists or weekenders) and it must show competitive travel times for those commuters.

downtown and 18th street streetcars are still a glimmer in lots of local eyes. i wouldn't be surprised to see one or the other proposed in the regional plan or as a public-private partnership after this is approved.

another side note about BRT: BRT and LRT funding all comes from the same bucket. those who would propose $700 million of simple bus improvements can forget it... highly unlikely the way the process is structured today (which favors projects or groups of projects based around creating, upgrading, or expanding routes). simple bus enhancements usually come through earmarks or other programs/mandates like CMAQ and ADA.

[GRID]

I've never been a fan of subways.  I think light rail tends to be much more pleasing to use, it fits better aesthetically and seems to promote dense redevelopment where subway entrances seem to do little more than accumulate trash and bums.  I also think light rail is more user friendly and less intimidating than a full blown subway system.

They work well in DC, NYC etc, but I would much rather see light rail in KC than  subways.  A few tunnels is ok, but to bury the entire line would erase a lot of the benefits that light rail would give to a city like KC even though travel speeds would be faster.

That’s just my opinion anyway.

KC just needs to build a high quality light rail system that is quick, visible and easy to use and understand.

I think there are compelling arguments on both sides of whether to run that line down Grand or Main.  I can see why one would choose either street.  So let’s just build it, Grand, Main, Walnut, I don’t care.  No more delays.

[KC-wildcat]

yeah... i can see this "not voting for a specific route" thing coming back to bite everyone in the ass.  How much more time will be spent studying the specific route even if the thing is passed?  Will the big wigs start moving behind the scenes and mess with the route so that it stops at their front entrance like the MAX does, and make it a shit light rail route?

I too would like to see a specific route before the vote takes place.  When it comes to a big transit project like this, I think taxpayers would take comfort in knowing "exactly" what they are paying for.  Seeing as the vote is not until November, seems like a design could be finalized by that time.  Especially because they already seem to have a pretty good idea of the layout.  Union Station connectivity appears to be on of the only significant hangups at this point.  

[voltopt]

An alternative route for the Crown Center / Union Station arguement, that a friend of mine and co poster has been talking about.

Essentially, the route would be on Grand south of the River until just south of the Western Auto Building, at which point it would veer right and go down OK street, below the Blue Cross Building and Main, and end up just south of the lower level of Union Station.  There is clearance down there - its designed to accomodate 18 wheelers and trash trucks...  look at the map (with alternate routes shown in red) and the photolinks from google streetview...




headed down OK Street...

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there appears to be enough clearance...

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One level down from the main entrance to union station will be the crown center / union station stop!  after this the train can pick up speed because its on a dedicated route...

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The tracks would continue along the current mail delivery area on the south side of the mail freight building.  I'm sure something could be arranged to accomodate the mail processing....  The alternate idea is to have the train come up out of the ground just south of pershing on kessler, but that may be too much of a grade change and more expensive...

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It would continue under the former Broadway Bridge (the parking ramp access to the Union Station Garage), here at grade...

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it would then continue under the broadway to west pennway overpass and turn to head south on Jefferson... we would probably have to demolish a building here

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the trains would then be on a dedicated right of way heading south of jefferson to the broadway highway ramp (soon to be vacated - sorry broadway drivers!  if you want to get on I-35 north, you're going to have to take 27th street or the trafficway.... - this could help relieve congestion where I-35, SW trafficway, and the broadway ramps intersect)

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the train would go under the southbound lanes of west pennway (overpass already exists!) and end up in the middle of  west pennway through penn valley park... (which is still open to vehicular traffic, Clay!)

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the route would then travel up "Penn Valley Drive" to Wyandotte, thus speeding past 31st on dedicated tracks just below the new bridge...

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And then up wyandotte to Linwood boulevard, which would be the next stop after union station... and the stop for north midtown...
this stretch of wyandotte is pretty desolate anyway..

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the biggest question at this point is how the track realigns with Main... but that can be developed later.
The important thing is the trains have a dedicated route from union station to midtown - thus attaining higher speeds.

This route would be even better if the trains could go south on broadway, but obviously people don't like that...

[DaveKCMO]

so where would you put intercity buses if you use OK street for light rail? just so everyone's clear: more people arrive and depart KC daily on greyhound and jefferson lines than on amtrak.

[voltopt]

Good question - buses could arrive to the east of the station, in the empty area between science city and the parking garage.  It really doesn't matter how buses access the station, as long as they can get to the loading zone, and the loading zone is adjacent to the station.  In this case, it would be.  The lower level of the west wing of the station, to the north, would be access for intercity buses, and to the south, would be the light rail station.  The light rail trains would only use OK street south of the station - intercity buses would use the portion east of the garage and north of the garage...

orange indicates bus access (and passenger vehicle)
blue indicates light rail line
orange square with red outline indicates bus platforms (more room than currently at 11th and troost)

[Critical_Mass]

This gets my vote! 
Keeps Union Station on the route, creates a fairly significant section of ROW that it won't share w/ automobile traffic, and gives us a pretty sweet "underground" station.

Like you mentioned, Voltopt, this makes the most sense with a Broadway alignment, which I think is far superior to a Main Street alignment.  Broadway would have connectivity to Penn Valley CC, Uptown Theatre & surrounding restaurants / bars, better connectivity to Westport & the Plaza, equidistant from two other major streets w/ commercial activity (Main & SW Tfwy).  Main street has a lot more auto-oriented development (Home Depot, McDonald's, a lot more surface parking) and the existing MAX line. 

[DaveKCMO]

how would you convince the westport-broadway juggernaut (nutter) to go along with it?

[Critical_Mass]

well, it's a public street, right?  If they're not exclusively paying for it's maintenance for automobile usage, I don't see where they get the authority to dictate what modes of transportation travel down it.

I assume by "juggernauts" you are referring to certain business owners on Broadway...
I'm not totally familiar with the history of them nixing rail alignments on that street or what authority they had.

[Critical_Mass]

oh, "nutter".  I see...
What's with him/her/they? 

[DaveKCMO]

well, it's a public street, right?  If they're not exclusively paying for it's maintenance for automobile usage, I don't see where they get the authority to dictate what modes of transportation travel down it.

I assume by "juggernauts" you are referring to certain business owners on Broadway...
I'm not totally familiar with the history of them nixing rail alignments on that street or what authority they had.

nutter and co. funded the opposition to the 2001 plan. they had no authority, and neither does the greater KC chamber, crown center, or andi udris. it may be irrelevant now since there is more public and private support then there's ever been before. still, the feds have been clear about consensus being a benefit.

[Critical_Mass]

I see... a PR smear campaign ensued.  Times are different.  Now isn't a good time to be anti-transit!  Maybe they've had a change of heart over there.  Or perhaps they've been hit by the real estate & mortgage bust...would they want to spend capital financing another opposition campaign??   

[Highlander]

The blue route would cost significantly more than the red route because there is considerably more track that would need to be laid on that route and it takes the route too far from KC's activity hub. I do not think I could support that variation.  The red route is more palatable but I am a little weary of forcing Union Station to be part of the light rail plan.  I do not think it needs to be or necassarily should be a critical factor in the placement of a light rail route. 

South of Crown Center, I think Broadway vs Main are a wash.  The entertainment areas along Broadway would benefit as would the north Broadway employment centers around the KC Life building but far more people are employed on the south end of Main as it descends towards the Plaza.  Broadway is closer to Wesport and the Plaza while Main is closer to the ultimate destination on Cleaver Blvd east of Troost.  I think its a wash. 

My philosophy on public transportation is to first and foremost hook up the vital areas of commercial activity.  I think Crown Center does that, Union Station does not. 

[ComandanteCero]

i appreciate the time and effort put into that map.  But i just don't see it... 

PROS:
Connects directly to Union Station
Goes on Grand through most of downtown
Going underground from Grand to Union Station along OK street doesn't require expensive platform building (as it would if it tried to stay at surface level) at least theoretically.
Could have own ROW once past Union Station and heading to midtown
red option would also hit the Federal Reserve

CONS:
Makes getting to Crown Center a pain. 
Makes route longer and has more turns, any time savings created by having its own R.O.W would be wiped out by these two things (in both red and blue)
Connection to midtown is complicated
Goes through a bunch of undevelopable parkland 

Which brings up another issue, I think it's important to remember that all of that land south of Crown Center (the surface lots and grass) are supposed to be developed in the future by Crown Center as the market allows.  Having the train go right through that, with a stop at or near the Fed reserve would nicely dovetail with any of those future development plans.

Above all that, Crown Center is just more important to serve directly than Union Station.  It has close to a quarter of all downtown office workers, it has a quarter of downtown hotel rooms, the route offers a straight and easy shot for folks heading north or south.  It's almost the textbook example of an activity center, which is where you need transit stops.  Granted, if Union Station were located differently I would totally want a stop there as well, but in an either/or situation, where we weigh the 5 minute walks of the folks who need to get to Crown Center vs the 5 minute walk of hypothetical commuters looking for a transfer (which might not even happen considering talk of putting a facility in the Rivermarket), where we weigh the width, ease of use and redevelopment potential of Grand vs Main, where we weigh the time differential for all riders using the system between a straight shot system and one that has additional kinks I say take Grand to Main via Crown Center.

[voltopt]

Goes through a bunch of undevelopable parkland 

I agree that it is somewhat pie in the sky - and unlikely.
But during these discussions, I want everyone to remember that rail through undevelopable parkland is ok - its an opportunity for the trains to speed up on dedicated right of way.  Also, remember that there will hopefully not be a stop on every block. I think a stop at Pershing and a stop at 31st/Linwood is sufficient... any light rail related development will likely take place at a stop, not necessarily inbetween. 
the only way these options work is if Broadway is the route - I agree, it is a wash, but we've already invested in transit infrastructure on Main Street (the Max)
Why do it all over again?

[KCMax]

A Kansas City Council roundtable conversation with Jan Marcason and Sharon Sanders  to discuss an extension on the city’s sewer and storm water plans, light rail, and economic  development on KCUR 89.3 at 11am.

[aknowledgeableperson]

All of this talk about light rail and its route is simply way out there.  Afterall, this talk assumes the Nov election will pass.

Wonder what the result will be if gas is less than $3 a gallon?


Forgive my lightness.  Just back from vacation and in a great frame of mind, fun mind that is.

[DaveKCMO]

Wonder what the result will be if gas is less than $3 a gallon?

chastain's plan passed with $3/gallon gas.

[LenexatoKCMO]

Forgive my lightness.  Just back from vacation and in a great frame of mind, fun mind that is.

Great, an extra contrarian AKP!  Just how everyone wants to start the work week.  

Wonder what the result will be if gas is less than $3 a gallon?

Even if Gas is selling at $2.97, do you really think the American public is rash enough to think the issue is over?  "well shit, gas is under $3, I better go out and buy that F-250 I was putting off . . . "?  I think most folks are smart enough to realize that even if things get a bit cheaper over the winter, it will just go back up when things warm up.  This summer has been ugly enough to put the fear of god into people for some time to come.  

[eliphar17]

I am confused as to why no serious consideration is being given to a literal compromise between Grand and Main in the CBD - specifically, Walnut. I realize it is quite a narrow street, but why not make a bold move and make car traffic a lower priority than public transit? Maybe it would be good to push some of that traffic over to Grand and make Walnut a transit/pedestrian priority corridor. Besides, losing lanes to light rail would be much more costly on Main and Grand.

The route would go on Walnut through the Crossroads to Main with a stop at, or possibly elevated above, Pershing & Main. At the North Loop it could fly over to Grand. If you think about it, it's a great balance between the Grand and Main activity points as well as muting the drawbacks of either of those streets.