Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

[kas1]

Using Broadway instead of Main would be a pretty big mistake. It would cost a lot more than just using the infrastructure that already exists on Main, it would make transfers much less convenient, and the benefits are somewhere between slim and none.

[AlkaliAxel]

Officials study potential to take streetcar north of the River
https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/of ... -the-river

I don't think this makes sense in the grand scheme. It says it's gonna take a year to "finish the study" and then probably another amount of years to get funding, and then *another* amount of years to build it....FOR ONE MILE of just STREETCAR.

If we're gonna be wasting 7 total years in total we need to be aiming for higher than this.

Holy shit...If we're gonna waste 7 years total in plan & design for *one mile* of just *streetcar* why not just take the time and study for actual rail like in KCMO or JaxCo.

I mean seriously...6-7 years all for 1 mile of just streetcar?
How is that efficient use of time and resources compared to the return we'd get for it. I just don't get why we wouldn't put in this kind of effort for such a tiny route on a tiny piece of rail.

Makes no sense why not use this sort of time on real rail.

[normalthings]

I agree that we should be pursuing bigger

[GRID]

Officials study potential to take streetcar north of the River
https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/of ... -the-river

I don't think this makes sense in the grand scheme. It says it's gonna take a year to "finish the study" and then probably another amount of years to get funding, and then *another* amount of years to build it....FOR ONE MILE of just STREETCAR.

If we're gonna be wasting 7 total years in total we need to be aiming for higher than this.

Holy shit...If we're gonna waste 7 years total in plan & design for *one mile* of just *streetcar* why not just take the time and study for actual rail like in KCMO or JaxCo.

I mean seriously...6-7 years all for 1 mile of just streetcar?
How is that efficient use of time and resources compared to the return we'd get for it. I just don't get why we wouldn't put in this kind of effort for such a tiny route on a tiny piece of rail.

Makes no sense why not use this sort of time on real rail.

Now you are starting to get it.

Taking a decade to build a tram line across the river? Jesus. If you are going to spend 50 million to build a transit river crossing, it better be able to accommodate full blown LRT.

Think about what Charlotte, Dallas, Phoenix, Seattle, Denver, MSP etc have built over a 10-15 year span. Dozens of miles of full blown LRT. In another 10-20 years, KC will be lucky to have ten miles of tram line. Great, you are keeping up with Omaha and OKC.

You see, It's not that I hate KC. I'm hard on KC though and for a good reason.

For the love of god metro KC come up with some sort of decent long term reginal transit master plan that's more than a few miles tram (which shouldn't leave the center city anyway). And then get started on implementing it. This is why a downtown stadium seems like such a joke to me when there is not even a real plan or even brainstormed idea on a website to improve transit there to the next tier of urban transit.

[AlkaliAxel]

I don’t understand how we *still* don’t have a single map/rendering of a light rail plan with the routes as our master plan yet. It makes no sense.

I saw a random guy on Twitter last week who has drawn up a whole planned map for light rail in KC- and he drew it in his free time because he was bored. But yet…the fucking city/county doesn’t even have an outline.

This isn’t hard. Draw the master plan. Get the price for it. Start building out pieces of it as much as we can.

I’m gambling that by the time they get around to a vote on it, the Main St extension will have been up long enough that voters will have opened their mind up to light rail enough by then. They’ll be used to riding it and seeing the usefulness.

But for fucks sake, just draw a few lines on a map and do the plan. Beyond Main St and maybe the E-W extension, I think the streetcar has run its course. It’s already time to start thinking beyond it.

[DaveKCMO]

Yeah, a map is the problem.

[AlkaliAxel]

This is just my opinion, but after Phase 3 of an E-W streetcar route, then I think the streetcar has run its course here. We need to get to LRT after that.

Tbh I continue to believe that after the Main St extension the public will have the will to support LRT. We might not even need to go for Phase 3 streetcar. Just skip that and go to LRT if we can after 2024-25 Main St extension has sunk in peoples minds.

Which would be cool, because even amongst cities with LRT, alot of them don’t have streetcars in their urban cores. So we’d be one of the few with a vibrant streetcar *and* LRT. That’s why we should really go for this soon.

[alejandro46]

Officials study potential to take streetcar north of the River
https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/of ... -the-river

I don't think this makes sense in the grand scheme. It says it's gonna take a year to "finish the study" and then probably another amount of years to get funding, and then *another* amount of years to build it....FOR ONE MILE of just STREETCAR.

If we're gonna be wasting 7 total years in total we need to be aiming for higher than this.

Holy shit...If we're gonna waste 7 years total in plan & design for *one mile* of just *streetcar* why not just take the time and study for actual rail like in KCMO or JaxCo.

I mean seriously...6-7 years all for 1 mile of just streetcar?
How is that efficient use of time and resources compared to the return we'd get for it. I just don't get why we wouldn't put in this kind of effort for such a tiny route on a tiny piece of rail.

Makes no sense why not use this sort of time on real rail.

Now you are starting to get it.

Taking a decade to build a tram line across the river? Jesus. If you are going to spend 50 million to build a transit river crossing, it better be able to accommodate full blown LRT.

Think about what Charlotte, Dallas, Phoenix, Seattle, Denver, MSP etc have built over a 10-15 year span. Dozens of miles of full blown LRT. In another 10-20 years, KC will be lucky to have ten miles of tram line. Great, you are keeping up with Omaha and OKC.

You see, It's not that I hate KC. I'm hard on KC though and for a good reason.

For the love of god metro KC come up with some sort of decent long term reginal transit master plan that's more than a few miles tram (which shouldn't leave the center city anyway). And then get started on implementing it. This is why a downtown stadium seems like such a joke to me when there is not even a real plan or even brainstormed idea on a website to improve transit there to the next tier of urban transit.

Kansas City doesn't need 'Light Rail' aka a different set of cars. It's easier and cheaper to utilize what we already have and it will do what we need in my opinion and can be modified to fit most of the uses of 'light rail" including dedicated center running tracks. The traffic/density just isn't there. We either need to (a) keep the streetcar in the urban core along what was previously approved in NextRail and improve bus/BRT service in the burbs

and / or

(b) expand the Streetcar to dedicated center running on select routes outside of the urban core. E.g Truman, DT Overland Park, KCI.

All depends on the RideKC Next study and what taxes the region is willing to approve. We may have higher asperations than Omaha and OKC, but our metro population density is so low, the urban core can't fund such a streetcar network without the Suburbs and/or massive federal funding. Our road network is overbuilt and it's relatively easy to get across the city in under 30 minutes. If we present the region that the streetcar is a development tool to make corridors throughout the city more dense/walkable, I think they would be willing to vote for a metro transit tax that would include streetcar spines in the urban core and the suburbs plus bus funding.

KC Metro density: 260 people per square mile (https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-ci ... population)
MSP: 2,594.3/sq mi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapol ... Saint_Paul)
Metro OKC: 259 people per square mile (https://www.bestplaces.net/people/metro ... 20is%202.6.)
Metro Omaha: 219.6/sq mi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omaha%E2% ... litan_area)
Chicagoland: 1,318/sq mi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_metropolitan_area)
Denver: 4,887 people per square mile (https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-ci ... population)

[normalthings]

Yeah, a map is the problem.

By all accounts, KCATA and KCSA are working on a “better map.” That is they are studying regional transit needs and willingness to support transit. As Dave said, we will have a better idea of what is proposed in the new year. So far, NKC and East/West have been announced but I am seriously hoping there is more. East/West is like 8 miles and sets you up for a county rail line so it’s not that bad.

OP could absolutely support a tram/LRT now. Lots of walkable development and infill. I'm just not sure if they would vote to approve it.

[AlkaliAxel]

Yeah, a map is the problem.

By all accounts, KCATA and KCSA are working on a “better map.” That is they are studying regional transit needs and willingness to support transit. As Dave said, we will have a better idea of what is proposed in the new year. So far, NKC and East/West have been announced but I am seriously hoping there is more. East/West is like 8 miles and sets you up for a county rail line so it’s not that bad.

OP could absolutely support a tram/LRT now. Lots of walkable development and infill. I'm just not sure if they would vote to approve it.

2 thoughts

1. I agree on E-W being a solid idea for streetcar. Definitely not against it…but beyond that we need go beyond streetcar.

2. Fuck JoCo approvals….for now
The best play is to work with Jackson County alone first. They’ll actually pass it. Then, JoCo after a couple years will be like “pfff why don’t we have that too..after all we’re supposed to be the superior county!” and then they’ll come on board. They won’t wanna be left out. They just have to be coaxed first by being shown they’re ‘missing out’.

The other silver lining too is if JaxCo passed it without JoCo involved at first, you’d see alot more jobs & development start going to KCMO and not JoCo finally.

[GRID]

All I'm saying is KC really needs to set bar a bit higher for long term transit goals. The streetcar is fine, but it's hardly a comprehensive transit system. It's disappointing to think that in 2030 or even 2040, KC might have another few miles of trams.

And the idea that KC is not dense enough to support LRT is absurd. The urbanized portion of metro KC is not any different than any other mid sized metro that has LRT. KC could easily support LRT especially in Jackson and Johnson Counties. High end BRT makes more sense to KCI, Liberty and WyCo.

I can see bringing the streetcar to downtown NKC, but that's one hellish expensive thing to do for a tram.

I just think building out a more comprehensive tram system in the city would be more worthwhile. Trams down Broadway and Troost etc. That will help fuel urban KCMO's renewal. Then have LRT and BRT feeding into a center city tram system.

Have some bigger goals to shoot for by 2030 or 2040 as the metro approaches 3 million people. KC has got to start investing some real money on things like this.

Think about what other cities will have in 2035 or 2040. Cities like Nashville will likely have a transit system similar to Denver or SLC or Charlotte today. There is no reason KC can't develop a plan and start building something more robust over the next 20 years.

[GRID]

It's the same problem with recreation. Pay some firms to come up with some master plans on what to do with recreation so you have a plan to shoot for and all these independent projects collectively connect to each other and make sense. The Broadway Bridge, the Riverfront, the 670 deck, the removal of the north loop, the Rock Island Bridge, Penn Valley Park, the Levees etc.

Come up with a long term master plan of what could be done with all that and how it could all work together. If such a plan were in place today, maybe the Lewis and Clark viaduct would not have been rebuilt right back to what it was in 1950 or the Broadway Bridge replacement would have been designed totally different.

The P&L district came together after KC paid for the Sasaki plan and the entire south side of downtown is very close to that initial plan idea developed by Sasaki. Hire Sasaki again to help come up with a plan for all this stuff.

[normalthings]

All I'm saying is KC really needs to set bar a bit higher for long term transit goals. The streetcar is fine, but it's hardly a comprehensive transit system. It's disappointing to think that in 2030 or even 2040, KC might have another few miles of trams.

And the idea that KC is not dense enough to support LRT is absurd. The urbanized portion of metro KC is not any different than any other mid sized metro that has LRT. KC could easily support LRT especially in Jackson and Johnson Counties. High end BRT makes more sense to KCI, Liberty and WyCo.

I can see bringing the streetcar to downtown NKC, but that's one hellish expensive thing to do for a tram.

I just think building out a more comprehensive tram system in the city would be more worthwhile. Trams down Broadway and Troost etc. That will help fuel urban KCMO's renewal. Then have LRT and BRT feeding into a center city tram system.

Have some bigger goals to shoot for by 2030 or 2040 as the metro approaches 3 million people. KC has got to start investing some real money on things like this.

Think about what other cities will have in 2035 or 2040. Cities like Nashville will likely have a transit system similar to Denver or SLC or Charlotte today. There is no reason KC can't develop a plan and start building something more robust over the next 20 years.

KC tried to get rail approved for 50 years before the starter line got the green light. Going bold never worked but being very conservative did. I agree that we are probably too conservative at this point. However, KCATA, MARC, Chamber, etc are working on a regional transit plan that could potentially be the bold vision that we are all looking for. Its probably not the rail heavy plan that myself (and it sounds like Grid) dream of but its something. Lets wait a few more weeks and see the plan before we go complete doom & gloom.

[dukuboy1]

Geez, what the hell are going to study for that long if it's just a street car line. Seems like you already have a lot of real usage data and such to use in modeling and then supplement it with your Northland specific data. But from a routing, environmental, engineering impact impact, etc. it could go quick. No reason you could not wrap all of that up in 12 months. But I do agree that thinking bigger about a light rail and street car system is a more wise choice. I'd focus on Jackson, Clay, and Platte counties first, maybe include Wyandotte as well given the soci-economic makeup and heavier potential usage of public transportation (especially with the GM plant as a major employer).

At any rate if we just focused on the MO side of things those counties would benefit the most especially considering the growth potential of the Northland and impacts to growing the tax base. Getting ppl to employers downtown, Crown Center, or Plaza area quickly without needing to drive a car would be huge for the MO suburbs. Plus routes to the airport & airport to downtown make sense. Honestly it becomes "bang for your buck" in terms of if you spend can you make it back? Where is the best chance for ROI within your targeted area and then focus ahead with your plan and get it done. Leaving JOCO out for now is fine, as most of JOCO works in JOCO. Would be awesome to have them on board & eventually they will but to start you can focus on MO counties of KC to keep the least amount of "cooks in the kitchen". JOCO would be happy if they had an option to the airport via a park and ride and something similar to get to Chiefs & Royals games, otherwise my guess is they would be very "meh" to anything else. Truth be told I'm sure al ot of the Northland & Eastern suburbs may have the same attitude. But we have seen Jackson & Clay counties step up before for things

[KCPowercat]

Can we stop using "trolley", we know from the anti-streetcar people anybody using the word is just trying to diminish the system.

[Critical_Mass]

Also stop using "tram", this is North America, not Europe or elsewhere.

[AlkaliAxel]

The straw that broke the camels back finally was when we realized it took 7 years to just build a mile of track across a bridge.

[GRID]

Geez, what the hell are going to study for that long if it's just a street car line. Seems like you already have a lot of real usage data and such to use in modeling and then supplement it with your Northland specific data. But from a routing, environmental, engineering impact impact, etc. it could go quick. No reason you could not wrap all of that up in 12 months. But I do agree that thinking bigger about a light rail and street car system is a more wise choice. I'd focus on Jackson, Clay, and Platte counties first, maybe include Wyandotte as well given the soci-economic makeup and heavier potential usage of public transportation (especially with the GM plant as a major employer).

At any rate if we just focused on the MO side of things those counties would benefit the most especially considering the growth potential of the Northland and impacts to growing the tax base. Getting ppl to employers downtown, Crown Center, or Plaza area quickly without needing to drive a car would be huge for the MO suburbs. Plus routes to the airport & airport to downtown make sense. Honestly it becomes "bang for your buck" in terms of if you spend can you make it back? Where is the best chance for ROI within your targeted area and then focus ahead with your plan and get it done. Leaving JOCO out for now is fine, as most of JOCO works in JOCO. Would be awesome to have them on board & eventually they will but to start you can focus on MO counties of KC to keep the least amount of "cooks in the kitchen". JOCO would be happy if they had an option to the airport via a park and ride and something similar to get to Chiefs & Royals games, otherwise my guess is they would be very "meh" to anything else. Truth be told I'm sure al ot of the Northland & Eastern suburbs may have the same attitude. But we have seen Jackson & Clay counties step up before for things

Agreed. Get a MO side only vote going and those that pass it get transit. It would be really nice if the KS side were involved, but it's just too political and would delay things. KS only wants things once KCMO has them it seems and honestly, I'm not sure transit on the KS side will be all that beneficial to KCMO. It won't hurt KCMO, but it won't help either. It's just not worth the hassle at this point.

I think Jackson County would absolutely support a county wide light rail system. Something that went from central KCMO to Blue Springs, Grandview and Lee's Summit would pass easily IMO. People from all over the county could take rail to the stadiums, downtown etc and then reach other destinations in the center city with the tram and bus system. People forget how populated and diverse and potentially transit friendly Jackson County is. JoCo not so much. Commuter transit to JoCo won't help KCMO at all. Way too easy to drive in.

[AlkaliAxel]

So I think we’ve come to a consensus here that:

1. We need to move beyond the streetcar now
2. We need to focus passing this in Jackson County first

[GRID]

Also stop using "tram", this is North America, not Europe or elsewhere.

Just easier to type and am more used to calling them that from other cities. I think KC's system will actually more resemble a European tram system than most American cities. It's not an insult or anything.