OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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GRID
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by GRID »

earthling wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:00 pm ^Agree. KC was a major center of cross-continental rail passenger traffic with 200 trains a day into Union Station. As airline traffic took away rail traffic, KC could've maintained high status if they did the airport right shortly after. Blew the opportunity but TWA kinda messed up too with their input. Eventual security rules ruined the new airport design, final nail into coffin. But yeah, should've happened much sooner, right after rail passenger traffic was being overtaken by air. Maybe MSP wouldn't have taken off in 60s if KC had a more dominate airport. Some will somehow find a way to blame JoCo nevertheless. &&
When has anybody ever blamed joco for KCI. This just makes you sound buthurt and in denial that JoCo has actually caused a shit ton of harm to KCMO. I mean, had JoCo gotten its way and moved many flights from KCI to a new commercial terminal at New Century airport in the 90's, do you think that would have helped or hurt KC? Probably would not have helped.

Other than that, you are spot on with KCI, TWA and the general idea that KC could have remained a major transit hub during the decline of rail travel.

KC also could have possibly had a second chance at becoming a major airline hub had the city not waited so long to do something with KCI. While I think there is a good chance that KCI will add significantly more flights, I also think KCI will never be what it could have been if this new terminal were built in the 90's or even the 00's. It may be possible, but it will be extremely difficult now with MSP, DIA, DFW etc so established and so much larger.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by earthling »

^Was kidding about JoCo comments. Note &&. Has meant ironic/sarcasm here for years. And there's no denial of the impact of JoCo on KCMO but not as malevolent as you often imply. It's far more complicated than simplistic fingerpointing. For starters, when Jeff City is more focused on STL and Topeka on KS side of metro, things will shift that way, would be more surprising if not.

Back to airport.. New airport will help but airlines were focusing on more flights to key hubs and fewer nonstop for outliers before COVID. New KCI might draw a few more flights and grab some SWA from STL but KC may need to control its own destiny in long run and get a homegrown airline back like Vangard when the timing is right.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

earthling wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:11 am Back to airport.. New airport will help but airlines were focusing on more flights to key hubs and fewer nonstop for outliers before COVID. New KCI might draw a few more flights and grab some SWA from STL but KC may need to control its own destiny in long run and get a homegrown airline back like Vangard when the timing is right.
Midwest is starting back up in Milwaukee, so there’s possibility we could get a mini-hub, or at least be a focus city for them again.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by KCPowercat »

I've had an Alaska Midwest hub as a pipedream if they wanted to expand.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by earthling »

If Milwaukee can restart a homegrown airline, maybe KC can bring back some form of Vanguard. Doesn't seem like great timing though.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by normalthings »

KCPowercat wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:28 pm I've had an Alaska Midwest hub as a pipedream if they wanted to expand.
I always thought Alaska or JetBlue. Southwest would probably be the best for us though in the short-mid run. Those 2 will take decades to scale up to the size of Southwest.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by Sani »

normalthings wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:59 pm I am jealous of their new terminal but I think ours is set up a lot better to become a focus city or connecting operation for an airline in the future. I value that a lot more. Our new terminal can be expanded to 42 gates immediately and 50 given a little more time but in a straight forward manner. NoLa and IND don’t have that luxury.
Is there a diagram anywhere that shows how the terminal could be expanded to 50 gates if needed?

I wouldn't be surprised if it's a few decades before more gates are needed. RSW (Southwest Florida Int'l Airport) opened their current terminal complex in 2005 with 28 gates, and it is designed to be expanded to 65 gates, but they haven't added any gates so far. Of course, that new terminal replaced the original terminal that was well beyond capacity with only 17 gates, so maybe they're still absorbing the increase in space.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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earthling wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:11 am ^Was kidding about JoCo comments. Note &&. Has meant ironic/sarcasm here for years. And there's no denial of the impact of JoCo on KCMO but not as malevolent as you often imply. It's far more complicated than simplistic fingerpointing. For starters, when Jeff City is more focused on STL and Topeka on KS side of metro, things will shift that way, would be more surprising if not.

Back to airport.. New airport will help but airlines were focusing on more flights to key hubs and fewer nonstop for outliers before COVID. New KCI might draw a few more flights and grab some SWA from STL but KC may need to control its own destiny in long run and get a homegrown airline back like Vangard when the timing is right.
I know it was sarcasm, but it was sarcasm "sorta". You many not admit it, but you have a soft spot for Johnson County. And I will be the first to admit that I don't. KCMO needs to treat JoCo exactly like what they are. A very competitive enemy for the most part. Doing anything to enhance JoCo is simply counterproductive for KCMO. And JoCO does NOTHING that is will benefit KCMO yet have shown over rand over that they will go out of their way to harm KCMO for their own short term gain even if it harms the metro as a whole in the long run (80s-00s).

Sometimes even when the KS side does cooperate with the MO side, I'm not sure it's beneficial. Did you see the proposals for the Amazon HQ from KC? The sites on the KS side made the entire metro look stupid as hell. Amazon was not going to build in suburban KS no matter how much the KS side thinks of themselves. If JoCo really wanted to help KC land Amazon, they would have helped push sites in urban KCMO along with KCMO to help them make a better proposal. They have not figured out that a strong downtown means a stronger JoCo. KCMO just needs to avoid JoCo for the most part. JoCo is not KCMO's friend. Just my opinion.

Again, I do agree with you on what you say about KCI. I think KCI will get more flights, but I don't see it ever really becoming more of a major airport with 20-30 million passengers. I think that ship sailed about 15 years ago. KCI will likely wrestle some Southwest flights back from STL and a few others from other carriers though. I think Denver killed KCI. StL to a lesser extend, but Denver's recent growth while KCI sat with its dumb terminals really hurt KCI. A good chunk of those flights at Denver could have been in KC. They are just too established there now. Denver was barely even on the radar of Southwest back when they wanted to make KC a foucus city and now Denver is probably Southwest's busiest hub while KC barely hits the top 20.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by earthling »

GRID wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:11 am KCMO needs to treat JoCo exactly like what they are. A very competitive enemy for the most part.
That's the divisiveness that will not allow the metro as a whole to move forward, coming from someone who no longer lives in KC a thousand miles away. The divisiveness is what needs to be addressed first and you're only making it worse, opening wounds further. Worse than a Chastain.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by earthling »

Sani wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:21 pm
normalthings wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:59 pm I am jealous of their new terminal but I think ours is set up a lot better to become a focus city or connecting operation for an airline in the future. I value that a lot more. Our new terminal can be expanded to 42 gates immediately and 50 given a little more time but in a straight forward manner. NoLa and IND don’t have that luxury.
Is there a diagram anywhere that shows how the terminal could be expanded to 50 gates if needed?
Would be interested in seeing this as well.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by shinatoo »

earthling wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:46 am
GRID wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:11 am KCMO needs to treat JoCo exactly like what they are. A very competitive enemy for the most part.
That's the divisiveness that will not allow the metro as a whole to move forward, coming from someone who no longer lives in KC a thousand miles away. The divisiveness is what needs to be addressed first and you're only making it worse, opening wounds further. Worse than a Chastain.
Well said.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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shinatoo wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:39 am
earthling wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:46 am
GRID wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:11 am KCMO needs to treat JoCo exactly like what they are. A very competitive enemy for the most part.
That's the divisiveness that will not allow the metro as a whole to move forward, coming from someone who no longer lives in KC a thousand miles away. The divisiveness is what needs to be addressed first and you're only making it worse, opening wounds further. Worse than a Chastain.
Well said.
A lot of us here are from Kansas, and I’m sure I’m not the only one who’s blood boils when reading alot that stuff said about our state
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:46 pm
shinatoo wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:39 am
earthling wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:46 am

That's the divisiveness that will not allow the metro as a whole to move forward, coming from someone who no longer lives in KC a thousand miles away. The divisiveness is what needs to be addressed first and you're only making it worse, opening wounds further. Worse than a Chastain.
Well said.
A lot of us here are from Kansas, and I’m sure I’m not the only one who’s blood boils when reading alot that stuff said about our state
I definitely understand where people are coming from with their attitude towards JOCO, and the general development trends over the last 50 years or so. What I don’t understand is the outright hostility towards them, as that is equally as terrible at holding back the region as a development can.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by TheSmokinPun »

I feel like it's just the paying the fair share thing. Any other metro, this mostly wouldn't be an issue but the state line keeps it a thing.

If more bi-state tax projects benefitted the entire area & both sides stopped competing & worked together instead, it'd probably go away quickly.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by herrfrank »

^At least as far as relevant to this thread, the funding for the all things "airport" largely derives from user fees (plus some federal infrastructure funds in this instance).

Generally, user fees or dedicated sales taxes are better for expenses shared across states (look at NY/ CT/ NJ for examples: bridges, airports, even sports arenas). Because the users pay for the services, the question of tax domicile is somewhat irrelevant.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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But 90% of the travelers at KCI are from Johnson County" So if it were not for JoCo people, KC would not even have any non stop flights, KC people would have to drive to Omaha. Just like the sports teams. I mean all the fans are from there and all the players live there right? JoCo is KC.

That's the main reason I still dislike the place, even if the economic bistate war is over. (which is shouldn't be, it's only over because KS saw they were going to start losing that war). I personally would have liked to see KCMO win some companies back first.

I only brought this up because I think it's more important to put all the effort possible into getting LRT in Jackson County, more streetcar lines on Troost, Indep Ave etc, transit and pedestrian bridges over the river and a real BRT line to KCI. That's the stuff KC should be worried about and finding ways to get done. Not Metcalf Ave or State Ave to Village West.
Last edited by GRID on Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by AlkaliAxel »

GRID wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:48 pm But 90% of the travelers at KCI are from Johnson County" So if it were not for JoCo people, KC would not even have any non stop flights, KC people have have to drive to Omaha. Just like the sports teams. I mean all the fans are from there and all the players live there right? JoCo is KC.

That's the main reason I still dislike the place, even if the economic bistate war is over. (which is shouldn't be, it's only over because KS saw they were going to start losing that war). I personally would have liked to see KCMO win some companies back first.

I only brought his up because I think it's more important to put all the effort possible into getting LRT in Jackson County, more streetcar lines on Troost, Indep Ave etc, transit and pedestrian bridges over the river and a real BRT line to KCI. That's the stuff KC should be worried about and finding ways to get done. Not Metcalf Ave or State Ave to Village West.
I do agree with GRID that putting streetcars into JoCo is a big mistake for KCMO.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by GRID »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:55 pm
GRID wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:48 pm But 90% of the travelers at KCI are from Johnson County" So if it were not for JoCo people, KC would not even have any non stop flights, KC people have have to drive to Omaha. Just like the sports teams. I mean all the fans are from there and all the players live there right? JoCo is KC.

That's the main reason I still dislike the place, even if the economic bistate war is over. (which is shouldn't be, it's only over because KS saw they were going to start losing that war). I personally would have liked to see KCMO win some companies back first.

I only brought his up because I think it's more important to put all the effort possible into getting LRT in Jackson County, more streetcar lines on Troost, Indep Ave etc, transit and pedestrian bridges over the river and a real BRT line to KCI. That's the stuff KC should be worried about and finding ways to get done. Not Metcalf Ave or State Ave to Village West.
I do agree with GRID that putting streetcars into JoCo is a big mistake for KCMO.
Yep. The LAST thing KC needs is for Overland Park to develop a "clayton" like district in northern OP. I mean seriously.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by rxlexi »

The discussion around the correlation between airport size/number of flights and metro area growth/economic impact is interesting to me. Curious what KC would look like today if MCI had been properly developed initially as a mid-continent hub for TWA as planned. Obviously that ship has sailed (or plane has taken off, as it were), but I'm intrigued by those kinds of historical chicken and egg scenarios in places like Dallas, MSP, and especially Denver.

Was high-growth (whether economic, population, or both) the driver of the sizable hub airports, or did the airports play a key role in sparking/sustaining that growth? With regards to Denver - the city was a medium size energy boom/bust town with a heavy dose of skiing related tourism into the 90's, when they really shifted into high-gear with the downtown redevelopment, light-rail plans, and DIA. Now a bustling tech hub, very-high growth in the most desirable demographic cohorts, and airport infrastructure that has grown from "way out in the middle of nowhere" to the type of LRT connected mid-con hub that perhaps MCI was to have been.

Probably safe to say regional growth rates and larger economic trends are the true impact players here, as proven by rust belt cities that have sustained large hubs for periods of time, only to lose them as they continue to stagnate. But it's not hard to imagine how much of a benefit the quality of and number of flights from a large airport must be to a regional business community, whether considering moving to or growing within a region.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by earthling »

^Yeah, Denver eventually capitalized on the mountain life and invested hugely in new airport at just the right time. If KC did things right as Union Station rail passenger traffic declined and had Howard Hughes attention, KC could've maintained a high profile with a major air hub that may have made it difficult for DEN/MSP/STL to build up as much air traffic, possibly. Can't say for sure but it was a big missed opportunity for KC.
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