Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

[normalthings]

why would it be single track? Maybe I missed where that was said somewhere? That would be a long stretch

Yes, north rail proposed a single track. Double track on HOA was roughly the same price as building a dedicated rail bridge iirc.

[KCPowercat]

I don't build bridges but that seems insane.

[normalthings]

I checked:

Double lane new bridge: $41 million
1 streetcar lane on existing HOA bridge (no widening): $23 million
1 streetcar lane + widening for bike/ped lane:$35 million. Safe to assume (IMHO) that 2 lanes of streetcar on HOA would far surpass the cost of a 2 lane new bridg.

[DaveKCMO]

Don't forget that the dialog around HOA should be very different now that O'Neil is funded and will have improvements (direct I-35 to US-169). The big question from that is does MoDOT still think they need HOA as part of their system (probably but maybe not), especially if it's brought down to grade in Columbus Park. If they agree -- as they did recently to decommission US-24 on Independence Avenue -- then who takes ownership of the bridge? KCMO did that for the starter line's bridge over I-670 and was already maintaining Independence Avenue.

Long story short, with MoDOT out of the picture their highway-focused requirements for hosting streetcar might change or go away.

[AlkaliAxel]

Don't forget that the dialog around HOA should be very different now that O'Neil is funded and will have improvements (direct I-35 to US-169). The big question from that is does MoDOT still think they need HOA as part of their system (probably but maybe not), especially if it's brought down to grade in Columbus Park. If they agree -- as they did recently to decommission US-24 on Independence Avenue -- then who takes ownership of the bridge? KCMO did that for the starter line's bridge over I-670 and was already maintaining Independence Avenue.

Long story short, with MoDOT out of the picture their highway-focused requirements for hosting streetcar might change or go away.

Could HOA be turned into a pedestrian bridge with a streetcar route?

[alejandro46]

why would it be single track? Maybe I missed where that was said somewhere? That would be a long stretch

Yes, it was originally scoped in North Rail as single track I believe to reduce costs and to keep car traffic. I believe that bridge also is up for an overhaul in the next 5-10yr plus with the new Buck bridge, they'll study what it would take to run double track plus appropriate bike/walking lanes over the HoA. It shouldn't have much impact on traffic, that bridge is always very low traffic when I drive over it and avg speeds hit like 70+ in a 45 so it could use some traffic calming.

What's your source for an overhaul? I haven't seen any plans for this and would like to see them.
I believe that idea was the track would replace the bike lane and build a new bike lane further over. the SB side is three lanes, the NB side two. They wanted the track on the outside of the bridge for reasons I forget.

Most the traffic is north of 10th Ave and that's entirely caused by a bad traffic signal setup. Swift is usually completely empty while Burlington is a parking lot.

Just earlier on this thread it was discussed since the bridge was built in 1986. Nothing specific. Any streetcar could definitely be incorporated to Beyond the Loop goal of moving 9 at grade.

[KCPowercat]

I checked:

Double lane new bridge: $41 million
1 streetcar lane on existing HOA bridge (no widening): $23 million
1 streetcar lane + widening for bike/ped lane:$35 million. Safe to assume (IMHO) that 2 lanes of streetcar on HOA would far surpass the cost of a 2 lane new bridg.

Ahhh, I wasn't considering it would have to be widened. That would make sense. Why not just run in traffic and not widen?

[normalthings]

I checked:

Double lane new bridge: $41 million
1 streetcar lane on existing HOA bridge (no widening): $23 million
1 streetcar lane + widening for bike/ped lane:$35 million. Safe to assume (IMHO) that 2 lanes of streetcar on HOA would far surpass the cost of a 2 lane new bridg.

Ahhh, I wasn't considering it would have to be widened. That would make sense. Why not just run in traffic and not widen?

The Heart of America Bridge has a posted speed limit of 45 mph. The generally accepted guideline for safe operation of a streetcar in mixed traffic is 35 mph. Reduction of the speed on the HOA Bridge was deemed as impractical, so streetcar operation in an exclusive lane were identified as a critical design parameter.

If Highway 9 is brought to grade, I support taking the 2 inner lanes and coverting to protected ROW streetcar.

From NorthRail.



1 lane streetcar on HOA



2 Way Streetcar on HOA



New Bridge

[KCPowercat]

Appreciate doing all that research since apparently I was too lazy to just look myself.

[flyingember]

For reference, the bridge is 1.1 miles from 3rd to 10th. It would have to be really bad weather for the train to take more than 3 minutes to cross.

[GRID]

For reference, the bridge is 1.1 miles from 3rd to 10th. It would have to be really bad weather for the train to take more than 3 minutes to cross.

yeah, but you always have a few minutes delay on each end to make sure the single track is cleared etc. It's likely to cause delays. I wouldn't do it unless there is just no other way. I guess they can add the second track later. This seems like a good candidate for the infrastructure money they are throwing around.

[normalthings]

A dedicated bridge seems cheaper than building a second lane eventually. It would also provide service to Columbus Park. I wonder if Bar-K and CORE prevent it from happening now.

[FangKC]

The one problem I can see with a dedicated bridge though is maintenance cost. A shared bridge means that maintenance for the span will be a shared one, where a dedicated bridge will be the sole responsibility of the streetcar authority.

[KCPowercat]

A dedicated bridge seems cheaper than building a second lane eventually. It would also provide service to Columbus Park. I wonder if Bar-K and CORE prevent it from happening now.

Can still service CP when bring 9 down as part of this extension

[Walker]

Need to connect SFH into the system. I liked Brookside/Waldo idea but expanding east/west might achieve the same thing

[langosta]

Streetcar Board agenda for this week

East/West High Capacity Transit Study
i. ACTION- Approval of KCSA contribution to east/west high capacity transit/streetcar
study, in an amount not to exceed $75,000, and contingent on comparable contributions from additional project partners. Budget and Finance Recommends Approval

[beautyfromashes]

Any chance they could make a center lane that is switchable. Open it to southbound traffic in the morning and northbound in the afternoon, so two lanes going with rush hour and one for the opposite direction. That is really the only time that there is much traffic. This gives north and south running train lanes and a pedestrian/biking lane while supplying plenty of capacity for morning and evening rush hour. I've seen it done in other cities.

[normalthings]

News from today: KC 2026 bid claiming that an expanded streetcar network and event specific busses will boost KC’s public transit profile by 2026. KC Streetcar board meeting this week includes discussions about how an expanded system would be funded and operated/maintained.

[AlkaliAxel]

Theoretically you could go on transit all the way if you lived in a hotel anywhere along Main St and they had a bus station somewhere downtown to the TSC. They should really try to get the South loop cap built by June 2026 too.

[DaveKCMO]

Theoretically you could go on transit all the way if you lived in a hotel anywhere along Main St and they had a bus station somewhere downtown to the TSC. They should really try to get the South loop cap built by June 2026 too.

What does the south loop lid have to do with this? If you're focused on the World Cup bid, there are a lot of better ways to spend that money than capping a freeway that (a) isn't that bad by US standards and (b) isn't even close to the transfer point for getting people to TSC from the Main Street Extension (that would be 31st Street, which is a horrible environment by any measure).

The east/west study will be focused on going east/west from Midtown, and there are two other freeways (71/435), an industrial river bottom, and lots of railroad tracks between Midtown and TSC so let's focus there.