OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

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normalthings
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings »

Riverite wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:03 pm
DaveKCMO wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:59 pm
grovester wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:19 pm IIRC, not dense enough to use TDD or to score well for federal funds.
Correct. Introducing 15m Main MAX service to Waldo in October will determine if there's enough real demand to merit a streetcar investment beyond UMKC. Keep in mind that most of the space between 51st and 75th is make up of strip retail and single-family homes. Denser than many places, but not dense enough on its own to leverage the TDD approach used previously.

NextRail study covers this: https://kcstreetcar.org/wp-content/uplo ... erview.pdf

And that's before you get to the issue with proximity to backyards, regardless of any legal challenge.
Linwood to prospect!!!!
Linwood to VA or Arrowhead!!!!!! Maybe with a direct connection into Crown Center via Gillham rd.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

earthling wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:12 pm
DaveKCMO wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:01 pm Plaza Library will be covered by the new 40 Broadway service that will run north along Broadway to downtown and East Village Transit Center.
Doubly nice. So where will new 40 terminate on S end?
UMKC.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember »

DaveKCMO wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:59 pm
grovester wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:19 pm IIRC, not dense enough to use TDD or to score well for federal funds.
Correct. Introducing 15m Main MAX service to Waldo in October will determine if there's enough real demand to merit a streetcar investment beyond UMKC. Keep in mind that most of the space between 51st and 75th is make up of strip retail and single-family homes. Denser than many places, but not dense enough on its own to leverage the TDD approach used previously.

NextRail study covers this: https://kcstreetcar.org/wp-content/uplo ... erview.pdf

And that's before you get to the issue with proximity to backyards, regardless of any legal challenge.
It's certainly not population density that's the reason or not for transit upgrades, it's it's economic density and our service expansions largely follow ridership rather than population density

2010 population numbers looking N-S first

The streetcar splits zip codes inside the loop
64105 (west) is 4650 per mile
64106 (east) has 5000 per mile
64108 (crossroads west Cambridge Circle and east towards the workhouse, south to 27th/31st) has 2085 per mile

Expansion south
64111 (31st to 46th) 5995 per
64112 5520 per

64112 ends at 55th and Brookside, just south of UMKC

Expanding south, 64113 is a density of 4540. So it's as dense as downtown per square mile

Lack of ridership could be better explained by providing service that doesn't work for the community.

Looking north
64116 is 1400 per square mile. The sheer number of jobs keeps their numbers down.
64118 is 3130, ending at Barry

So Gladstone is as dense as the crossroads


Looking east here's the zip codes that span or are east of Troost. river to Hardesty down to 63rd
64123 6300
64124 7421
64129 910
64109 4790 (troost)
64128 3790
64110 5050 (troost)
64130 2847

64110 shows really well why the train shouldn't go down Brookside and should continue down Troost from UMKC. It's denser than downtown!
But if we can quantify a train down brookside, we certainly can quantify one to Gladstone.

In terms of sheer ridership we see the failure of 2014. 64124 is Independence Ave and ends at about Hardesty but the train plan in 2014 ended less than halfway into the zip code. People voted no who lived far away so to give the densest urban zip code a reason to say no was a bad one.

24 should be upgraded to Max service
Last edited by flyingember on Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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normalthings
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings »

flyingember wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:37 am
DaveKCMO wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:59 pm
grovester wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:19 pm IIRC, not dense enough to use TDD or to score well for federal funds.
Correct. Introducing 15m Main MAX service to Waldo in October will determine if there's enough real demand to merit a streetcar investment beyond UMKC. Keep in mind that most of the space between 51st and 75th is make up of strip retail and single-family homes. Denser than many places, but not dense enough on its own to leverage the TDD approach used previously.

NextRail study covers this: https://kcstreetcar.org/wp-content/uplo ... erview.pdf

And that's before you get to the issue with proximity to backyards, regardless of any legal challenge.
It's certainly not population density that's the reason or not for transit upgrades, it's it's economic density and our service expansions largely follow ridership rather than population density

2010 population numbers looking N-S first

The streetcar splits zip codes inside the loop
64105 (west) is 4650 per mile
64106 (east) has 5000 per mile
64108 (crossroads west Cambridge Circle and east towards the workhouse, south to 27th/31st) has 2085 per mile

Expansion south
64111 (31st to 46th) 5995 per
64112 5520 per

64112 ends at 55th and Brookside, just south of UMKC

Expanding south, 64113 is a density of 4540. So it's as dense as downtown per square mile

Lack of ridership could be better explained by providing service that doesn't work for the community.

Looking north
64116 is 1400 per square mile. The sheer number of jobs keeps their numbers down.
64118 is 3130, ending at Barry

So Gladstone is as dense as the crossroads


Looking east here's the zip codes that span or are east of Troost. river to Hardesty down to 63rd
64123 6300
64124 7421
64129 910
64109 4790 (troost)
64128 3790
64110 5050 (troost)
64130 2847

64110 shows really well why the train shouldn't go down Brookside and should continue down Troost from UMKC. It's denser than downtown!
But if we can' quantify a train down brookside, we certainly can quantify one to Gladstone.

In terms of sheer ridership we see the failure of 2014. 64124 is Independence Ave and ends at about Hardesty but the train plan in 2014 ended less than halfway into the zip code. People voted no who lived far away so to give the densest urban zip code a reason to say no was a bad one.

24 should be upgraded to Max service
Thank you for bringing in those stats. An Independence Avenue line would have been great. I wish it had happened back then. The bright side is that we can wait to see what happens with HOA and NorthLoop. Wouldn’t it be great if an Independence Avenue line came into the i70 ditch “below grade”. You could skip all of the downtown traffic and congestion. It would also set you up nicely for quick access to KCK when a line gets built that way.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by FangKC »

Yes, few realize that the Historic Northeast neighborhoods are probably the densest neighborhoods -- more so than downtown's densest zip codes of 64105, 64106 -- which are mostly inside the downtown loop. That might not be true forever as those zip codes, and 64108 (Crossroads), add more housing.

It is regrettable that more people didn't support the Independence Avenue streetcar line, since it would have reached the densest neighborhoods. There are also plenty of development infill opportunities along that route. It would have reached KCUMB. The university might have reduced its' parking and allowed development of their lots south of Independence Avenue, since many of its' students might have commuted to school on the streetcar. It was only recently that KCUMB demolished several apartment buildings to expand parking.

It is possible that the level of opposition in these neighborhoods has dropped, and a new transit taxing election might pass now.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember »

FangKC wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:53 pm Yes, few realize that the Historic Northeast neighborhoods are probably the densest neighborhoods -- more so than downtown's densest zip codes of 64105, 64106 -- which are mostly inside the downtown loop. That might not be true forever as those zip codes, and 64108 (Crossroads), add more housing.

It is regrettable that more people didn't support the Independence Avenue streetcar line, since it would have reached the densest neighborhoods. There are also plenty of development infill opportunities along that route. It would have reached KCUMB. The university might have reduced its' parking and allowed development of their lots south of Independence Avenue, since many of its' students might have commuted to school on the streetcar. It was only recently that KCUMB demolished several apartment buildings to expand parking.

It is possible that the level of opposition in these neighborhoods has dropped, and a new transit taxing election might pass now.
To reiterate what I've put before, the greatest support in 2014 was the precincts along the train, the lowest support were far away from it and along Prospect for bus.
The system not being operational yet certainly didn't help that.

I would love to see large parts of the 2014 studies included in a regional tax plan.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

flyingember wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:37 am 24 should be upgraded to Max service
Zip code seems like a little bit of a weird metric given how large the zip areas area in some instances. But I agree with your point above, and no doubt 24 is either number 1 or 2 on the list for MAX service.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember »

smh wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 7:56 am
flyingember wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:37 am 24 should be upgraded to Max service
Zip code seems like a little bit of a weird metric given how large the zip areas area in some instances. But I agree with your point above, and no doubt 24 is either number 1 or 2 on the list for MAX service.
Finding good data sets that provide like for like numbers isn't always easy
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

flyingember wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 8:51 am
smh wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 7:56 am
flyingember wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:37 am 24 should be upgraded to Max service
Zip code seems like a little bit of a weird metric given how large the zip areas area in some instances. But I agree with your point above, and no doubt 24 is either number 1 or 2 on the list for MAX service.
Finding good data sets that provide like for like numbers isn't always easy
Why not census tracts?
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

We use ACS data. It's not hard to find.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Community_Survey

Independence Avenue is first in line for MAX. Linwood is second, then North Oak. Kansas is a big TBD because regional funding.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by langosta »

Someone on Twitter asked if dedicating more lane space to streetcar was possible. Streetcar response was basically: designs are only at 60% so far ;)
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings »

Traffic flows well with one lane per direction. We should paint about the entire length red
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

Don't tease me.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by beautyfromashes »

The N-S flow of traffic during this initial phase of construction on Main doesn't seem to be greatly affected. E-W roads, however, seem to be stacking up. I wonder if we're starting to see more people actually traveling east as more places open and people feel more comfortable in those areas. There are more apartments on Armour, more restaurants (Billie's Grocery and others) that people are traveling too. I think we need to make a better effort to orient traffic to that direction than just Plaza to DT. Change traffic lights and times, basically make those traveling that way a priority in the hopes of enticing more people into those areas.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

beautyfromashes wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 12:23 pm The N-S flow of traffic during this initial phase of construction on Main doesn't seem to be greatly affected. E-W roads, however, seem to be stacking up. I wonder if we're starting to see more people actually traveling east as more places open and people feel more comfortable in those areas. There are more apartments on Armour, more restaurants (Billie's Grocery and others) that people are traveling too. I think we need to make a better effort to orient traffic to that direction than just Plaza to DT. Change traffic lights and times, basically make those traveling that way a priority in the hopes of enticing more people into those areas.
Kansas City's tolerance for slight delays on urban streets is incredibly low. Cars stacking up at an intersection isn't a problem unless you're a traffic engineer following the MUTCD like it was a bible.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by FlippantCitizen »

Ancedotally I'll agree that crossing Main E-W has presented more delays than actually driving Main N to S. Having to wait 2 full green lights on Linwood before being able to cross Main a couple weeks ago was a little frustrating.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

FlippantCitizen wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:15 pm Ancedotally I'll agree that crossing Main E-W has presented more delays than actually driving Main N to S. Having to wait 2 full green lights on Linwood before being able to cross Main a couple weeks ago was a little frustrating.
Sure, sure, but in even if there was a lane reduction post-construction that would not be your experience.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by watcher64110 »

Honest traffic question: I like the new Gilham bike lanes, but do not understand why there is a dedicated right turn lane for car traffic northbound onto Linwood. The left turn lane is also a through lane; You have to wait through several lights just to continue north due to the backup of people making left turns onto Linwood. Is there some reason for this? Seems like a mistake to me.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by FlippantCitizen »

DaveKCMO wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:17 pm
Sure, sure, but in even if there was a lane reduction post-construction that would not be your experience.
Oh yeah not to imply anything like that. Just in regards to the delays I've experienced with specific and temporary circumstances related to contruction. I sorely hope there is a dedicated lane if there's any chance it is still in the cards.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by beautyfromashes »

DaveKCMO wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 1:06 pm Kansas City's tolerance for slight delays on urban streets is incredibly low. Cars stacking up at an intersection isn't a problem unless you're a traffic engineer following the MUTCD like it was a bible.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not complaining about delays and understand the goal to restrict lanes to push people to transit, or at least make it a more viable option. But, if we are going to constrict traffic, let’s use it as an opportunity to change where people go. For example, N-S lights are timed longer. I assume this is to get people from the wealthy suburbs (Brookside, MH, etc) to DT office jobs. Maybe if Linwood or 39th was timed for quick traffic people in the city would use it to get to the stadiums instead of the highway. They’d get more comfortable with that area and be more likely to work, live and entertain there. Just a thought. Give incentive to go EW instead of NS like it is currently.
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