Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

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alejandro46
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Re: Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

Post by alejandro46 »

GRID wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:56 pm
flyingember wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:45 pm
GRID wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:38 pm


The ride from the suburbs into downtown KC is just not that long of a drive nor is there much of a delay. But if you have to drive to a train, wait for the train, take a train downtown (which will take the same time as a bus on the interstate) and then have to use another form of transit to reach your final destination. The commuter rail is not going to run down Grand and drop you off at your office.
The streetcar is standard gauge. It's not impossible, maybe not probable, that the commuter system could run on streetcar tracks downtown.

Maybe the answer is more bus lanes. Because today the bus goes just as fast as all the cars. When US 71 SB is backed up the bus is too.

The core idea behind rail is it's not stuck in the same traffic, so we need to take busses out of traffic.
The rail would have to be heavily modified and straightened and put into more of a dedicated right of way. Basically it would need to be rebuilt in most places and that point, you may as well just build a whole new rail line down Grand or something.

I-70 and I-35 both have very minimal delays. From Olathe or Blue Springs, the delay is rarely more than 10 minutes. Crashes in KC cause delays, not volume for the most part. I-70 in KC should be 8 lanes simply because it's an urban area and that would allow for one lane for HOV. But building funding to build bus/hov lanes seems like a pipe dream. Although the interstates in StL are much nicer, wider etc than KC, so it can be done.

I just don't see the point. It would be different if KC already had a robust regional bus system and the next step was commuter rail, light rail etc.
Right- I think the best option is to focus on a streetcar as perhaps initially a development tool to bridge walkable activity centers and increase dense development. The center spine was definitely not a waste of money if you consider the billion+$ in development and increase in population along the line. We are already seeing similar effects on Phase 2. There is no reason why similar patterns wouldn't continue to happen perhaps to lesser effect if the system is run East down Linwood and to the RIRR corridor.

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Re: Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

Post by flyingember »

Yes, that's the idea.

Would rail induce demand for transit, increase density with new development, all that stuff, too? Yes, to a large degree. Maybe not downtown level but it would do it.

I picture a limited stop line up N Oak to Barry to Tiffany Springs. Use the same line for accessing parking/rental cars in the airport.

As it is today, it makes no sense. But focused development along the train using existing roads is a lot better than the sprawl development and it looks genius if it works out.

Someone in Clay County has talked about building a brand new development a la College Blvd near Hodge Park. Why not encourage this along N. Oak and transit instead?

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normalthings
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Re: Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

Post by normalthings »

The Linwood streetcar study had an alternative routing that brought it into Crown Center via Gillham rd. That would be idea routing for a line that extended outside of the urban core.


For now, imagine a rail line from Raytown to Truman Sports Complex to VA and then Crown Center. The benefits of this are:
  • East Side Rail line which can collect riders from the N/S MAX and Bus lines
  • Connects a major employer (VA) to the rail system
  • Connects the Truman Sports Complex to the rail system, a popular concept with the average Joe
Suburban buses would feed into the Raytown and TSC stations. Build the line with dedicated ROW and longer and speedier vehicles. As the county grows, the line can be expanded to lee's Summit. If we do nothing, highway expansion is guaranteed to happen in the future. By at least starting a line into the county, we can make transit an active discussion point.

I just spoke with one of the top financing experts on transit projects in the US. Transit stimulus is expected to be a boost to existing competitive grant programs. KC will need to propose a line that is at least semi-competitive. Linwood to VA is competitive for multiple reasons (ridership, development opportunity, MLI, etc). The segment to Raytown is a little tricker. Paired together, they might pass through but this might be where an earmark comes into play. If Sharice Davids can land $600 million for highway expansion in Kansas, we can certainly land a earmark to help us cover the gap between VA and Raytown. If we can get the county to vote yes, I really think we have a good shot of securing the federal funds required.

I think we should also look at asking for a TDD directly along future rail lines. It is only fair to capture the added value of rail and results from previous elections show support is high next to the lines.

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

Post by TheLastGentleman »

KC needs trains. Needs em everywhere. Trains trains trains.

Also if streetcars and buses are perfectly interchangeable, why were they originally built in the first place? Couldn’t everyone have exclusively used omnibuses or whatever to get around? Clearly there’s something to putting vehicles on rails

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Re: Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

Post by shinatoo »

Nobody develops property based on a bus stop.
Quocunque Jeceris Stabit

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smh
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Re: Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

Post by smh »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:05 pm
KC needs trains. Needs em everywhere. Trains trains trains.

Also if streetcars and buses are perfectly interchangeable, why were they originally built in the first place? Couldn’t everyone have exclusively used omnibuses or whatever to get around? Clearly there’s something to putting vehicles on rails
Well, I mean, ride comfort was the initial reason, no? Before pneumatic tires the omnibus/cobble combo was hell on the back. :lol:

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beautyfromashes
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Re: Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

Post by beautyfromashes »

shinatoo wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:28 pm
Nobody develops property based on a bus stop.
No one needs to incentivize development in the Northland. That is already happening on its own. And why would we put trains to the burbs when we want to give people a good reason to move back to the city? I feel like flyingember just wants to live in a ranch house on an acre lot but still be able to walk to the bus on the corner to come DT. The two are incompatible.

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normalthings
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Re: Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

Post by normalthings »

beautyfromashes wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 12:40 pm
shinatoo wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:28 pm
Nobody develops property based on a bus stop.
No one needs to incentivize development in the Northland. That is already happening on its own. And why would we put trains to the burbs when we want to give people a good reason to move back to the city? I feel like flyingember just wants to live in a ranch house on an acre lot but still be able to walk to the bus on the corner to come DT. The two are incompatible.

If we don't offer a train, we are going to keep building and expanding highways and low-density sprawl.

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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

beautyfromashes wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 12:40 pm
shinatoo wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:28 pm
Nobody develops property based on a bus stop.
No one needs to incentivize development in the Northland. That is already happening on its own. And why would we put trains to the burbs when we want to give people a good reason to move back to the city? I feel like flyingember just wants to live in a ranch house on an acre lot but still be able to walk to the bus on the corner to come DT. The two are incompatible.
Because putting trains out to the burbs exposes suburbanites to transit that’s viable, efficient, and something they’d use, to then bring them downtown...
For all my military brothers and sisters out there, thanks for paving the way, ill do my best! AIRBORNE!

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normalthings
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Re: Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

Post by normalthings »

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:03 pm
beautyfromashes wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 12:40 pm
shinatoo wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:28 pm
Nobody develops property based on a bus stop.
No one needs to incentivize development in the Northland. That is already happening on its own. And why would we put trains to the burbs when we want to give people a good reason to move back to the city? I feel like flyingember just wants to live in a ranch house on an acre lot but still be able to walk to the bus on the corner to come DT. The two are incompatible.
Because putting trains out to the burbs exposes suburbanites to transit that’s viable, efficient, and something they’d use, to then bring them downtown...
also connects people in the core to jobs and amenities in the suburbs.

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Re: Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

Post by shinatoo »

normalthings wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 12:40 am
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:03 pm
beautyfromashes wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 12:40 pm

No one needs to incentivize development in the Northland. That is already happening on its own. And why would we put trains to the burbs when we want to give people a good reason to move back to the city? I feel like flyingember just wants to live in a ranch house on an acre lot but still be able to walk to the bus on the corner to come DT. The two are incompatible.
Because putting trains out to the burbs exposes suburbanites to transit that’s viable, efficient, and something they’d use, to then bring them downtown...
also connects people in the core to jobs and amenities in the suburbs.
Bit of a chicken and an egg. You have to have the infrastructure downtown to move people around effectively without a car before you can start bringing a bunch of people downtown without cars. Are we there yet?

And if we are, and you want to live the car-free life, there are plenty of affordable options downtown, or downtown adjacent, in a simi suburban setting.
Quocunque Jeceris Stabit

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Re: Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

Post by flyingember »

beautyfromashes wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 12:40 pm
shinatoo wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:28 pm
Nobody develops property based on a bus stop.
No one needs to incentivize development in the Northland. That is already happening on its own. And why would we put trains to the burbs when we want to give people a good reason to move back to the city? I feel like flyingember just wants to live in a ranch house on an acre lot but still be able to walk to the bus on the corner to come DT. The two are incompatible.
The city put a rain plan to the vote in 2009 to build a train line to within a block of my house in the northland. We moved ~10 blocks west with an infill home build, filling in a lot on a almost 100 year old street.

I live closer to downtown than Brookside is.

There's empty lots 4 miles from downtown while we build new neighborhoods 15+ miles away.

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beautyfromashes
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Re: Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

Post by beautyfromashes »

I just disagree on trains to the suburbs. There are not enough people there currently to warrant the huge cost and we should not be giving incentive for more people to live there. The entire focus should be bringing people and jobs back to a dense urban core.

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Re: Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

Post by DaveKCMO »

beautyfromashes wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 11:11 am
I just disagree on trains to the suburbs. There are not enough people there currently to warrant the huge cost and we should not be giving incentive for more people to live there. The entire focus should be bringing people and jobs back to a dense urban core.
And we don't have dedicated right-of-way to make them fast (and that's not for lack of imagination -- acquiring property to get dedicated ROW would just drive up the already high cost of construction).

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GRID
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Re: Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

Post by GRID »

beautyfromashes wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 11:11 am
I just disagree on trains to the suburbs. There are not enough people there currently to warrant the huge cost and we should not be giving incentive for more people to live there. The entire focus should be bringing people and jobs back to a dense urban core.
Yep. Talk of Commuter Rail in KC should just die. The only place where commuter rail made any sense was along the I-35 tracks in JoCo and that idea died decades ago due to railroad conflicts.

If and when there is ever enough demand to build rail for suburban commuters then do it right and build light rail so that it does more than just move a couple thousand commuters that park their $50,000 cars in some rural/suburban surface parking lot near their large lot subdivisions.

Look at the Nashville system. They have the tracks, they have a nice place in downtown to end the line. They have major traffic congestion and they still can't get more than 1000 riders a day on the system. Total waste of money.

I have always thought light rail would work in KC along the I-70 corridor. Rebuild I-70 or US-40 as part of a major project that includes dedicated light rail and you have a built in commuter rail system.

alejandro46
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Re: Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

Post by alejandro46 »

Good luck with just Jackson County/KCMO funding an urban core streetcar all alone. Failed the first time, if just KCMO voted on it with no northland extension, people wont vote for it - I would but car dependent northland I doubt it'll fly. It need to be a 4 county wide solution.

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