Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

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normalthings
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings »

Grid, KCATA is in the process of redesigning its bus system. There are also serious efforts to put forward a more regional system. The current streetcar adjacent service has to reflect the budget level and needs of today. But I honestly think that a tax will pass making additional funds available for transit, etc.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by kboish »

Grand is easily the easiest, highest frequency street to get bus service on within downtown

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

kboish wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:34 pm
Grand is easily the easiest, highest frequency street to get bus service on within downtown
The goal of KCATA within the last five years was to have a bus about every 2 minutes between River and Crown Center.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

KCPowercat wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:25 pm
Dave might fly all the way out there to smack your face with talk like that :)

Bus service has definitely improved. I'm sure there is data to back that up.
We'll know more after the redesign. It primary goal was to stem the loss in ridership (while retaining as much KCMO coverage as possible).

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GRID
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by GRID »

normalthings wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:32 pm
Grid, KCATA is in the process of redesigning its bus system. There are also serious efforts to put forward a more regional system. The current streetcar adjacent service has to reflect the budget level and needs of today. But I honestly think that a tax will pass making additional funds available for transit, etc.
I always thought the streetcar was a totally independent self funded system from the rest of the ata. Grand still needs so much attention and I just think a high quality transit line there (not just a place where a lot of bus routes go down) is ideal to improve Grand and get Crown Center more tied to Downtown with infrastructure (bus lanes, cycle path, landscaping etc.)

Maybe someday I guess.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by earthling »

Would imagine that as housing/population densifies along the entire expanded streetcar stretch, there will eventually be a desire for an overlaying express MAX line as well with few stops (and extended further N/S than streetcar). So don't see it happening until years after streetcar opens if at all, but it would be ideal. The core stretch of City would justify it at some point. The streetcar to me is highly effective as a local service, not commuter/express and it shouldn't try to become the latter.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

Also you wonder what the need for the express bus is as the technical memo for streetcar predicts a 13.5 minute running time between UMKC and Union Station.

Also assumes 14k riders/day by 2037, fwiw.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember »

DaveKCMO wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:43 pm

We'll know more after the redesign. It primary goal was to stem the loss in ridership (while retaining as much KCMO coverage as possible).
Really?

Overlay the redesign onto the map in this article. We’re adding service to areas that are shrinking and reducing it in areas that are growing, it’s no wonder ridership is declining

https://www.flatlandkc.org/people-place ... nsas-city/

The biggest lost opportunity is the lack of high frequency northland service. And not even far away, areas like Crestview and along Vivion Rd. Lack of service to new jobs areas like Riverside and increasing service into downtown with fewer jobs than 20 years ago

64116 is one of the most diverse zip codes economically, with tens of thousands of jobs and it doesn’t have better than every 60 off peak on the weekend. There isn’t a one seat bus ride from Indep Ave 15 minutes away from NKC

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

flyingember wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:14 am
DaveKCMO wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:43 pm

We'll know more after the redesign. It primary goal was to stem the loss in ridership (while retaining as much KCMO coverage as possible).
Really?

Overlay the redesign onto the map in this article. We’re adding service to areas that are shrinking and reducing it in areas that are growing, it’s no wonder ridership is declining

https://www.flatlandkc.org/people-place ... nsas-city/

The biggest lost opportunity is the lack of high frequency northland service. And not even far away, areas like Crestview and along Vivion Rd. Lack of service to new jobs areas like Riverside and increasing service into downtown with fewer jobs than 20 years ago

64116 is one of the most diverse zip codes economically, with tens of thousands of jobs and it doesn’t have better than every 60 off peak on the weekend. There isn’t a one seat bus ride from Indep Ave 15 minutes away from NKC
What's the population density in the northland areas you describe? The northland is growing, but not in a transit-friendly way from my observation, making it difficult if not impossible to justify frequent service. Curious what your take is on this.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember »

1. density

https://www.reddit.com/r/kansascity/com ... nsas_city/
This first map is big picture. The low density east side looks to be the area east from Blue Valley Park to Swope Park and south of 63rd. Not that useful but a good start

https://kcmaps.wordpress.com/2012/05/31 ... opulation/
The 3d maps from here show good information. You can see the northland has more pockets of lower density, but overall that same 63rd St line shows. Probably the best map for general routing questions

http://cei.umkc.edu/MapArchive/census/D ... gRates.pdf
This 2010 map is more interesting for JoCo, showing how the east side is as dense as much of older Overland Park. I'm not sure if that shows JoCo is dense or the east side isn't but it certainly doesn't show a dense population in the urban core compared to elsewhere. In that year the northland was denser than most of the crossroads. Think about what that means for transit coverage.

2. population trends

This is the 2000 to 2010 population trend map. It describes exactly why the bus system is losing ridership, because service isn't increasing where people move to or decreasing where fewer people live.
https://www.marc.org/Data-Economy/Maps- ... ubble.aspx

This is the same map for housing vacancy changes. The east side vacancy rate went up by 20% of more in that era. Yellow seems to be the stable baseline.
https://www.marc.org/Data-Economy/Maps- ... hange.aspx


3. Race, Poverty

The bus system is designed for and has become a system for people who have no other option. Is it any wonder the 2014 streetcar election failed, the bus system is designed for the poor and they know it.

The map on page one shows how much the coverage is tied to race. Go to file page 9 and you find it also maps to poverty. Go down one page and it shows assisted housing and you can see the same thing again.
https://www.marc.org/Regional-Planning/ ... ter_3.aspx

This map shows crime, and it's a near match to the poverty/public housing maps.
http://www.marc2.org/metrooutlook/Indic ... /crime.asp

So we're hitting the perception that public transit moves criminals around.


3. The future.

What hurt transit in the northland has been bad frequency and bad coverage.
Look at the redesign, there's going to be zero routes better than every 40 in the northland.
https://ridekc.org/assets/uploads/image ... ncy_lg.png

I would say that transit service needs to look at the weekend and teenagers. It needs to be focused on the next round of possible riders. On reducing poverty through jobs access.

We need to scrap the downtown only focus to do this.

Look at the Riverside casino or the new Riverside industrial area. Both places in Riverside are 4 miles from the KCK downtown transit center. We're literally not providing bus service from area of high poverty and crime to hundreds if not thousands of jobs.

The streetcar is a good start for the overall goal, reducing barriers to get to work but it's still a bunch of well off white people focusing on themselves.
When the 2014 vote failed there should have been a 2015 TDD vote for the east side too. If it failed, a 2016 TDD vote. And so on.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

Isn't largely a density problem? The northland simply isn't very dense. For the most part that can be said of all of KC even in the urban core. It's frustrating, and a little bit chicken and egg I suppose. I just don't think you'll ever have meaningful transit ridership in the northland without a sea change in land use.

Image

Image
Legend is population density per sq mile.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by alejandro46 »

This discussion would be better in a different thread, either Northland or the Streetcar to NKC thread.

The problem is that developers build for a car centric environment that is the Northland and treat transit and largely pedestrians as an afterthought. Which in turn exacerbates the problem because it's hard to run transit in such a car centric environment.

Not to beat a dead horse, but if we knew there would be a BRT then eventual Streetcar line up from NKC along North Oak/Metro North then to Barry Road/Zona Rosa combined with better zoning policies we could build a better, denser environment that would be then more conducive to transit

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember »

alejandro46 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:35 pm
This discussion would be better in a different thread, either Northland or the Streetcar to NKC thread.

The problem is that developers build for a car centric environment that is the Northland and treat transit and largely pedestrians as an afterthought. Which in turn exacerbates the problem because it's hard to run transit in such a car centric environment.

Not to beat a dead horse, but if we knew there would be a BRT then eventual Streetcar line up from NKC along North Oak/Metro North then to Barry Road/Zona Rosa combined with better zoning policies we could build a better, denser environment that would be then more conducive to transit
Downtown Gladstone would back up your idea. If that same scale could happen along all of N Oak it would rival the best along Main for density.
And Main is surprisingly not all that dense. There’s some blocks you could confuse for any street with only one story building pad sites.

It’s a very chicken-egg situation.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

flyingember wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:07 pm
alejandro46 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:35 pm
This discussion would be better in a different thread, either Northland or the Streetcar to NKC thread.

The problem is that developers build for a car centric environment that is the Northland and treat transit and largely pedestrians as an afterthought. Which in turn exacerbates the problem because it's hard to run transit in such a car centric environment.

Not to beat a dead horse, but if we knew there would be a BRT then eventual Streetcar line up from NKC along North Oak/Metro North then to Barry Road/Zona Rosa combined with better zoning policies we could build a better, denser environment that would be then more conducive to transit
Downtown Gladstone would back up your idea. If that same scale could happen along all of N Oak it would rival the best along Main for density.
And Main is surprisingly not all that dense. There’s some blocks you could confuse for any street with only one story building pad sites.

It’s a very chicken-egg situation.
I think North Oak is a good corridor for a retrofit of those shopping centers particularly around Vivion Road (at least to begin). Imagine a more humane street fronted by apartments and retail instead of standalone fast food joints.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

Back to the actual phase 2 please.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by GRID »

Is there a reason more of the stops are not like the Plaza stop? Larger stops like 39th/Westport seems like a good place for a larger platform/shelter type stop.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

Phase 2 question: Is there any rumbling/plan at city hall to upzone the corridor? If we want bang for our buck we should be allowing some amount of density as of right along Main.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by watcher64110 »

smh wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:41 am
Phase 2 question: Is there any rumbling/plan at city hall to upzone the corridor? If we want bang for our buck we should be allowing some amount of density as of right along Main.
https://midtownkcnow.org/userfiles/imag ... cument.pdf

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh »

watcher64110 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:03 am
smh wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:41 am
Phase 2 question: Is there any rumbling/plan at city hall to upzone the corridor? If we want bang for our buck we should be allowing some amount of density as of right along Main.
https://midtownkcnow.org/userfiles/imag ... cument.pdf
You love to see it!

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

GRID wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:28 am
Is there a reason more of the stops are not like the Plaza stop? Larger stops like 39th/Westport seems like a good place for a larger platform/shelter type stop.
Higher ridership and lots of regional bus connections.

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