New Broadway Bridge

Transportation topics in KC
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GRID
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by GRID »

The High Line is a self sustaining attraction all by itself. It actually does just "end" at both ends, but it's quite a walk and there are lots of buildings and offices that butt up against giving those people a place to go, when it's not totally full of tourists anyway.

I just think the Broadway bridge project needs to be part of a bigger plan, a plan that should be implemented at the same time, not 30 years in the future. I take it that re-purposing the old bridge is out of the question. I don't really understand that. There are literally dozens of examples all across the country of cities retrofitting bridges like the Broadway into pedestrian bridges. It's expensive. But you have to spend money sometimes. The key is also building up the recreational infrastructure on both sides of the bridge. Just about every other city in the country is able to work around rail roads, army core of engineers (levees) etc, why is this such a problem in KC?

This bridge in Louisville is a good example of what can be done on the ends of the bridge, which would tie the bridge to the riverfront and river market by foot or bicycle and open up the harlem areas of NKC to recreation. Also, the downtown airport loop road should be at least marked to dedicated a trail, but even better, a trail built along side the road with a direct connect to the bridge. And you can't say that's not possible either. Both BWI and DCA here have very popular trails on airport property.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Louis ... 85.7584557

This bridge in Memphis doesn't go anywhere, yet it's a major destination and makes all the riverfront parks on the TN side all that more popular.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Memph ... 90.0489801

The 9th St bridge in Richmond:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kansa ... 94.5785667

Looks similar to what the new Broadway bridge will end up looking like. Flat bridge with bike lanes. But look at what those bike lanes connect too, A very extensive river parks system with all kinds of trails and connections to city neighborhoods. Like most cities, Richmond also has some really popular pedestrian only bridges too though helping to create a circuit to cross the river in more than one place. Same deal in Tulsa, boring bridges are fine, but they have a very large riverfront trails system on both sides of river.

From Little Rock to Portland to Philly to Tampa. Every city has this stuff if they are anywhere near water. KC doesn't. The city should be spending money to do this instead of building these connections from 169 to 35 which are totally redundant and not needed.

I have beat a dead horse. Moving on.

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by normalthings »

GRID wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:45 pm
The city should be spending money to do this instead of building these connections from 169 to 35 which are totally redundant and not needed.
As said before, those connections appear to help make Northloop removal more of a thing. I'm sorry, but that project is worlds more viable and beneficial than a pretty bridge to a new park.
Last edited by normalthings on Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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alejandro46 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:22 pm
Part of the reason this is not possible, and why the bridge was never shut completely is due to harm it would potentially cause to Children's Mercy and VML based at the airport.
Sorry, not buying it. Sure CMH transports into the DT airport for quick transfer of organs for transplant, but they have a helicopter. VML shouldn’t be at Wheeler anyway. A creative company should be in a creative location with activity around it. They build no neighborhood synergy in that location.

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by im2kull »

Eon Blue wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:16 pm
I like a pretty bridge as much as the next person, but what has the aesthetically pleasing Bond Bridge done to enhance downtown, the riverfront, or North Kansas City that a boring girder bridge wouldn't have also accomplished? To me, landmark bridges are like tall buildings in the skyline. They look good from a distance, and while driving through, but typically don't materially improve the experience on the ground. That's where I'd rather see investments made.
Ask tourists how they feel. I'll give you a hint: NOBODY wants to move to a boring, chlorine clean city with no character. Architecture exists to attract. The failure to use attractive architecture has GENERATIONAL effects.

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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im2kull wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:36 pm

Ask tourists how they feel. I'll give you a hint: NOBODY wants to move to a boring, chlorine clean city with no character. Architecture exists to attract. The failure to use attractive architecture has GENERATIONAL effects.
And yet Levittown attracted tons of people with a chlorine clean community.

For everything you say there's someone who wants the opposite.

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

flyingember wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:19 pm
im2kull wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:36 pm

Ask tourists how they feel. I'll give you a hint: NOBODY wants to move to a boring, chlorine clean city with no character. Architecture exists to attract. The failure to use attractive architecture has GENERATIONAL effects.
And yet Levittown attracted tons of people with a chlorine clean community.

For everything you say there's someone who wants the opposite.
Kind of an apples to oranges comparison, in the fact that Levittown was the new hip place to be, with the first real “modern” American subdivision.
For all my military brothers and sisters out there, thanks for paving the way, ill do my best! AIRBORNE!

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by moderne »

Will traffic crossing the bridge southbound that is heading for 70 eastbound still have to use Broadway and make a left?

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by KCPowercat »

Disallow that. No reason to even make that move.

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im2kull
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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by im2kull »

flyingember wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:19 pm
im2kull wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:36 pm

Ask tourists how they feel. I'll give you a hint: NOBODY wants to move to a boring, chlorine clean city with no character. Architecture exists to attract. The failure to use attractive architecture has GENERATIONAL effects.
And yet Levittown attracted tons of people...
Literally never heard of it.

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

im2kull wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:47 pm
flyingember wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:19 pm
im2kull wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:36 pm

Ask tourists how they feel. I'll give you a hint: NOBODY wants to move to a boring, chlorine clean city with no character. Architecture exists to attract. The failure to use attractive architecture has GENERATIONAL effects.
And yet Levittown attracted tons of people...
Literally never heard of it.
Heres a good read on it if you’re interested!

https://ushistoryscene.com/article/levittown/
For all my military brothers and sisters out there, thanks for paving the way, ill do my best! AIRBORNE!

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by FangKC »

Highway Robbery: How 80 Years of Land Use and Transportation Policy Slowly Strangled a Neighborhood

http://urbanangle.net/highway-robbery-8 ... hood/?s=04

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by Rabble »

FangKC wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:24 am
Highway Robbery: How 80 Years of Land Use and Transportation Policy Slowly Strangled a Neighborhood

http://urbanangle.net/highway-robbery-8 ... hood/?s=04
Thank you for posting this article, I had never come across Urban Angle before. Amazing how many commercial buildings were along Independence Ave in the Columbus Park neighborhood.

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

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From Little Rock to Portland to Philly to Tampa. Every city has this stuff if they are anywhere near water. KC doesn't. The city should be spending money to do this instead of building these connections from 169 to 35 which are totally redundant and not needed.

I have beat a dead horse. Moving on.
Take a break but don't move on, you have too many good ideas.

My dead horse is the ASB bridge. I can't believe anybody interested in downtown could not envision the streetcar going over this beautiful bridge. It was designed to have the St. Joe/Excelsior Springs Interurban on its upper level so how great it would be to have the streetcar traveling the same span 100 years later. And what an icon for the river front, with the roadways brought back on both sides of the truss for pedestrians and bikes, and the streetcar going down the center.

Yes, you would need new approaches on both sides. Yes, you would have to negotiate with the big bad railways. Yes, much hard work, but other cities have found it to be worthwhile.

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by flyingember »

Rabble wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:19 pm
From Little Rock to Portland to Philly to Tampa. Every city has this stuff if they are anywhere near water. KC doesn't. The city should be spending money to do this instead of building these connections from 169 to 35 which are totally redundant and not needed.

I have beat a dead horse. Moving on.
Take a break but don't move on, you have too many good ideas.

My dead horse is the ASB bridge. I can't believe anybody interested in downtown could not envision the streetcar going over this beautiful bridge. It was designed to have the St. Joe/Excelsior Springs Interurban on its upper level so how great it would be to have the streetcar traveling the same span 100 years later. And what an icon for the river front, with the roadways brought back on both sides of the truss for pedestrians and bikes, and the streetcar going down the center.

Yes, you would need new approaches on both sides. Yes, you would have to negotiate with the big bad railways. Yes, much hard work, but other cities have found it to be worthwhile.
Using a complete bridge was expensive enough it basically stopped planning. Adding approach structures roughly equal to the length of 6th to Truman is dramatically more expensive, to the tune of up to 3x the cost.

Don’t confuse lack of available funding for lack of interest to do something

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by Rabble »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:08 am
Rabble wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:19 pm
From Little Rock to Portland to Philly to Tampa. Every city has this stuff if they are anywhere near water. KC doesn't. The city should be spending money to do this instead of building these connections from 169 to 35 which are totally redundant and not needed.

I have beat a dead horse. Moving on.
Take a break but don't move on, you have too many good ideas.

My dead horse is the ASB bridge. I can't believe anybody interested in downtown could not envision the streetcar going over this beautiful bridge. It was designed to have the St. Joe/Excelsior Springs Interurban on its upper level so how great it would be to have the streetcar traveling the same span 100 years later. And what an icon for the river front, with the roadways brought back on both sides of the truss for pedestrians and bikes, and the streetcar going down the center.

Yes, you would need new approaches on both sides. Yes, you would have to negotiate with the big bad railways. Yes, much hard work, but other cities have found it to be worthwhile.
Using a complete bridge was expensive enough it basically stopped planning. Adding approach structures roughly equal to the length of 6th to Truman is dramatically more expensive, to the tune of up to 3x the cost.

Don’t confuse lack of available funding for lack of interest to do something
Would the fact that the bridge has been designated a national landmark by the American Society of Civil Engineers help with securing grants from the government?

Is it embarrassing to anyone that we have a mutilated national landmark in our front yard?

I haven't heard anything recently about the streetcar crossing the river. Has North Kansas City lost interest?

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by normalthings »

Rabble wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:52 pm
flyingember wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:08 am
Rabble wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:19 pm


Take a break but don't move on, you have too many good ideas.

My dead horse is the ASB bridge. I can't believe anybody interested in downtown could not envision the streetcar going over this beautiful bridge. It was designed to have the St. Joe/Excelsior Springs Interurban on its upper level so how great it would be to have the streetcar traveling the same span 100 years later. And what an icon for the river front, with the roadways brought back on both sides of the truss for pedestrians and bikes, and the streetcar going down the center.

Yes, you would need new approaches on both sides. Yes, you would have to negotiate with the big bad railways. Yes, much hard work, but other cities have found it to be worthwhile.
Using a complete bridge was expensive enough it basically stopped planning. Adding approach structures roughly equal to the length of 6th to Truman is dramatically more expensive, to the tune of up to 3x the cost.

Don’t confuse lack of available funding for lack of interest to do something
Would the fact that the bridge has been designated a national landmark by the American Society of Civil Engineers help with securing grants from the government?

Is it embarrassing to anyone that we have a mutilated national landmark in our front yard?

I haven't heard anything recently about the streetcar crossing the river. Has North Kansas City lost interest?
NKC is interested but didn’t even have enough money for the value driven HOA option. New construction bridge for LRT is around $5,0000 per lf. So maybe $20-30 million to renovate HOA and build new approach structures. ASB will have most of that cost and higher with ROW acquisition and added costs due the height of bridge supports needed. Having a much cheaper and just as useful alternative available is not going to win over MARC or FTA. If it doesn’t improve level of service or save cost it’s not going to get moved forward.
Last edited by normalthings on Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by alejandro46 »

normalthings wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:37 pm
Rabble wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:52 pm
flyingember wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:08 am


Using a complete bridge was expensive enough it basically stopped planning. Adding approach structures roughly equal to the length of 6th to Truman is dramatically more expensive, to the tune of up to 3x the cost.

Don’t confuse lack of available funding for lack of interest to do something
Would the fact that the bridge has been designated a national landmark by the American Society of Civil Engineers help with securing grants from the government?

Is it embarrassing to anyone that we have a mutilated national landmark in our front yard?

I haven't heard anything recently about the streetcar crossing the river. Has North Kansas City lost interest?
NKC is interested but didn’t even have enough money for the value driven HOA option. New construction bridge for LRT is around $5,0000 per lf. So maybe $20-30 million to renovate HOA and build new approach structures. In reality it will be much higher with ROW acquisition and added costs due the height of bridge needed. Having a much cheaper and just as useful alternative available is not going to win over MARC or FTA. If it doesn’t improve level of service or save cost it’s not going to get moved forward.
IIRC, the HOA bridge option was in the lower $30m range per NorthRail, with the huge value add of bike lanes/sidewalks to the under-utilized bridge. Cheaper+ more function.

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by TheLastGentleman »

How much was the ASB option going to cost?

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by FangKC »

Please explain what is is a cost benefit to extending the streetcar to municipality of North Kansas City, a city of 4,500 residents? About 20 percent of those are children; 14 percent are above retirement age. Why would that city spend millions to do it? It's more than $6,600 per resident (just to adapt the bridge using the aforementioned figure of $30 million). The cost per resident would actually be higher. How many of those residents are actually going to regularly use it--must less actually approve spending tax money to do it?

I can see merit is there is a broader, achievable plan to extend it further north into the Northland.

However, there are more employees and students (more than 9,100) at KU Medical Center than live in N. Kansas City, so expending the streetcar to Rosedale makes a lot more sense to me. It doesn't require upgrades to bridges. There are also more residents in the Rosedale neighborhood (14,000) of KCK than in N. Kansas City.

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Re: New Broadway Bridge

Post by GRID »

FangKC wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:00 pm
Please explain what is is a cost benefit to extending the streetcar to municipality of North Kansas City, a city of 4,500 residents? About 20 percent of those are children; 14 percent are above retirement age. Why would that city spend millions to do it? It's more than $6,600 per resident (just to adapt the bridge using the aforementioned figure of $30 million). The cost per resident would actually be higher. How many of those residents are actually going to regularly use it--must less actually approve spending tax money to do it?

I can see merit is there is a broader, achievable plan to extend it further north into the Northland.

However, there are more employees and students (more than 9,100) at KU Medical Center than live in N. Kansas City, so expending the streetcar to Rosedale makes a lot more sense to me. It doesn't require upgrades to bridges. There are also more residents in the Rosedale neighborhood (14,000) of KCK than in N. Kansas City.
Yeah, there is no reason to cross the river with transit unless it's full blown light rail or commuter rail. The ROI is just not there otherwise and it makes no sense to ask little 4500 population NKC to foot much more than a tiny percent of a transit river crossing that should benefit a much larger portion of the Northland's population of 350,000. I still think the Northland (mainly a route to KCI and Liberty) would be best served by a high quality BRT system running on the HOA Bridge. Run coach buses every 30 minutes from the proposed river market transit hub to KCI with a few slip ramps to park and rides along they way (similar to the Flatiron Flyer route in Denver) and you have the best transit connection to KCI possible, way better and way cheaper than rail.

Transit should cross the river at some point by rail, but the northland needs way more people and density for rail. Till then, ASB should be a very good candidate for a recreation crossing. It wouldn't cost near as much to build trail approaches and a trail deck on the bridge. Louisville did it and they needed similar major approach infrastructure like KC would need.

I just cringe every time I hear about running the streetcar to KCI etc. It's not that kind of transit. It would cost so much, move so few and take forever for the few people that did use it to get anywhere. The streetcar is an urban tram. Nothing more. It's a good urban tram system though.

While the ASB does have some big obstacles, I still think that bridge along with possibly repurposing the old Broadway Bridge should be a part of a master plan to make the river a major recreational destination. So many cities have done it and yea, it does cost millions of dollars. But honestly, I think spending 25 million on something like that would do more for the city than adding a half mile or whatever it cost to extend the streetcar to a very lightly populated and car oriented area (even at full build out). Different people have different needs in a city I guess. The extension to the riverfront is okay I guess. It just seems really expensive for what it is and by far the best part of that project is not the streetcar extension, but the dedicated bike bridge IMO.

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