COVID19

Come here to talk about topics that are not related to development, or even Kansas City.
bobbyhawks
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Re: COVID19

Post by bobbyhawks »

I find that when people grow tired of discussing the actual issues because those discussions are hard and more nuanced than most want to admit, we resort to calling things "right" or "left" because that is really really easy and sounds totally true based on that one time we watched that one thing. It is the easiest thing in the world to shop for the thing that proves your stereotypical impression of something else, and the MSNBC vs. Fox debate has now been used for over a decade to distract from actual discussions.

I find that there are many things I've been interested in or wanted for KC suggested on this forum, and many of the so-call "liberal" voices have been the ones to say they are impractical, expensive, infeasible, unsustainable, etc. While I like to dream big, I find it refreshing for insiders and those more knowledgeable about city matters, including budget, the actual sausage-making, etc., to teach me about how things work and shoot holes in those ideas. It seems pretty juvenile to me to drag others by indicating all information sources are inherently biased, thereby dismissing all information they cite, and then dismiss the conversation entirely by claiming everyone is "left wing" and implying they are incapable of legitimate information.

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FangKC
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Re: COVID19

Post by FangKC »

According to ABC News:

There are 71,000 new cases in the last 24 hours nationally.

Both Florida and Texas record their highest COVID daily deaths in the last 24 hours--156 in Florida; 14,000 new cases in Florida in the last 24 hours.

Contract testing in Florida is virtually impossible to do because it is taking 14 days or more to get results of tests back.

Gov. Abbott of Texas continues to beg residents there to wear masks.

Morgues are running out of space in San Antonio, and Arizona, and refrigerated trucks are being brought in.

One out of every four people tested in Arizona are positive for COVID.

The governor of Georgia bans cities from mandating masks in that state. Gov. Kemp is suing Atlanta from rolling back reopening there.

Colorado, Arkansas, Alabama reverse course and issuing statewide mask orders.

Hackers, APT29 aka CozyBear, connected to the Russian government, are attempting to steal critical COVID-related research here in the USA.

72 NFL players test positive for COVID.

mean
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Re: COVID19

Post by mean »

Anytime someone accuses any group of people of being in an n-wing bubble, they should be required by social custom to ascertain, using serious introspection and self-evaluation, whether, in fact, they are just in a y-wing bubble, and the people whom they accuse are just normal people.

earthling
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Re: COVID19

Post by earthling »

When my left leaning friends call me a rigthy and my right leaning friends call me a lefty it supports I'm a moderate. I respond by telling them if they think I'm a [l|r]ighty, maybe they should surround themselves with more people unlike themselves.

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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: COVID19

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

It’s so wild that people are so heavily ingrained in their political affiliation that they believe if you don’t go all D or all R on a ballot that you’re some sort of anti-American, democracy hating heathen. Almost implying that people who decide their political opinion on each individual issue, instead of by party lines, are somehow inferior to people who abide by the party lines. I truly realize why political parties are so toxic to our republic now.
For all my military brothers and sisters out there, thanks for paving the way, ill do my best! AIRBORNE!

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taxi
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Re: COVID19

Post by taxi »

If you don't have a left wing and a right wing, you will fly in circles.

kboish
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Re: COVID19

Post by kboish »

If your left wing and right wing don't see the same reality, you will fly into trees.

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: COVID19

Post by TheLastGentleman »

kboish wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:12 am
If your left wing and right wing don't see the same reality, you will fly into trees.
Something as objective as a global pandemic never should’ve become partisan, and I hope we understand which side takes the blame for that happening

kas1
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Re: COVID19

Post by kas1 »

People can make shitty arguments and shitty posts regardless of political ideology. Claiming to be a centrist isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card for bad posting. And frankly, having a stance of "Every single politician is exactly equally terrible and cannot be distinguished from each other" is much more radical and less nuanced than what you'll find from a lot of people who actually have, you know, actual opinions on things which translate into party preferences. It's also a recipe for some really shitty posting since it leads to arguing about everything without actually saying anything.

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Re: COVID19

Post by DColeKC »

kas1 wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:05 pm
People can make shitty arguments and shitty posts regardless of political ideology. Claiming to be a centrist isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card for bad posting. And frankly, having a stance of "Every single politician is exactly equally terrible and cannot be distinguished from each other" is much more radical and less nuanced than what you'll find from a lot of people who actually have, you know, actual opinions on things which translate into party preferences. It's also a recipe for some really shitty posting since it leads to arguing about everything without actually saying anything.
It's a lot harder these days to admit to being a centrist or somewhere in the middle than it is to say you're a democrat or republican. I have beliefs that disqualify me from one of the main parties in my opinion even though I tend to lean harder to the right, there's just a lot I find wrong with the republican party in general. Like their stance on abortion and birth control for example.

Being a centrist or independent doesn't mean you don't have opinions or that yours are any less valuable than a person who votes down the party line. It means I choose to look at issues individually and don't want to conform to what "my party" says is right.

mean
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Re: COVID19

Post by mean »

Well then, isn't everyone a centrist by that definition? I don't know of... anybody, probably... that doesn't look at issues individually and agrees with everything a particular party says. I guess those people probably exist, as social media parodies of actual people if nothing else, but I can't say I know any.

I used to watch Dave Rubin's youtube show when it started. It seemed promising. He talked a good game about the free exchange of ideas and a promise to be objective and unbiased. Then he started doing shit like creating false equivalences between virtually anything that comes out of Donald Trump's mouth or Twitter feed and the fact that Barack Obama once misleadingly claimed you could keep your plan/doctor under Obamacare, and that was the end of that for me. I feel like that's not entirely unlike what some posters here do. "They're all equally bad, just in different ways!" belies a deeply uncritical evaluation of reality which essentially denies the existence or at least importance of nuance and context. Which is funny, because then those very same people do things like call the people who make critical and nuanced evaluations of reality sheep, when in fact, sheep are well known for their deeply uncritical evaluations of reality and aren't particularly interested in context or nuance. Suspicious...

DColeKC
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Re: COVID19

Post by DColeKC »

mean wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:49 pm
Well then, isn't everyone a centrist by that definition? I don't know of... anybody, probably... that doesn't look at issues individually and agrees with everything a particular party says. I guess those people probably exist, as social media parodies of actual people if nothing else, but I can't say I know any.

I used to watch Dave Rubin's youtube show when it started. It seemed promising. He talked a good game about the free exchange of ideas and a promise to be objective and unbiased. Then he started doing shit like creating false equivalences between virtually anything that comes out of Donald Trump's mouth or Twitter feed and the fact that Barack Obama once misleadingly claimed you could keep your plan/doctor under Obamacare, and that was the end of that for me. I feel like that's not entirely unlike what some posters here do. "They're all equally bad, just in different ways!" belies a deeply uncritical evaluation of reality which essentially denies the existence or at least importance of nuance and context. Which is funny, because then those very same people do things like call the people who make critical and nuanced evaluations of reality sheep, when in fact, sheep are well known for their deeply uncritical evaluations of reality and aren't particularly interested in context or nuance. Suspicious...

Don't really disagree and I hate the term "sheep". I've never called anyone that or a snowflake etc. I know several people that vote one way or another regardless of anything besides party loyalty. There are millions of those types in this country. I think politics in general is a messy game and sure, there's some great politicians and there are some terrible ones that have been involved in politics for decades and need to move along. Why we don't have term limits I'll never understand. I didn't like Obama's politics but he was certainly the gold standard for how a president should act.

earthling
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Re: COVID19

Post by earthling »

I call myself an indie moderate rather than centrist but have a completely different view from how most would characterize the approach. I may specifically support a left position (socially liberal, not socialist) or a right position (allow state control more often than federal) but they are just loose guidelines, not party line dogma. It's on a case by case basis based on reason or how things have been playing out. Willing to adjust and compromise.. On COVID, supported shorter lockdowns and not killing economy but only if safely managed, such as mandating masks/PPEs nationally, which has been oddly politicized as lefty. I was supporting masks when CDC was downplaying them for public use (granted, to save for healthcare workers). Suggested Feds (or someone like Gates Foundation) buying 3M patent for N95 masks and allow global free license and blitz the planet.

Being a moderate is not about free pass to bash both sides. It's about assessing case by case based on reason rather than partyline dogma and it might happen to align with one of the parties and/or not with other. There are plenty who identify with a party but are moderate, though less than there used to be.

Other examples.... Support free enterprise/trade however federal regulation (not by default) when necessary or exploitation is obviously possible - and much of corporate America will exploit when they can. Support federal spending to develop people to become self-sufficient, not handout dependency or ignoring the social issues. Support federal infrastructure spending but sometimes not operations (case by case). Support globalized thinking and very much opposed to nationalism/isolationism but also support pursuing fair trade. Support national healthcare depending on how executed, ideally by state level operationally but some states are not playing nicely. Regulating healthcare isn't working and they are often exploiting public so maybe Feds do need to step in at a higher level. At least for an 8+ year trial. Hopefully Biden can improve ACA.

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FangKC
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Re: COVID19

Post by FangKC »

According to ABC News:

138,979 confirmed COVID deaths.

77,000 new cases for a second day in a row. Three times as many as a month ago.

COVID task force experts recommend 18 states, that are seeing increases in cases, rollback efforts to reopen.

30 states now have statewide mask mandates.

California governor orders 32 counties on a watch list for school reopenings to stay closed until those counties can meet specific criteria.

Florida residents are waiting up to 18 days for test results. Many testing locations have run out of test kits. Experts say that after a 3-day delay in getting results, contract tracing efforts prove useless.

Texas reports record death rates from COVID for three days in a row.

mean
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Re: COVID19

Post by mean »

DColeKC wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:12 pm
Why we don't have term limits I'll never understand. I didn't like Obama's politics but he was certainly the gold standard for how a president should act.
We absolutely need term limits.

If you didn't like Obama's politics (and I didn't agree with everything he did, but would easily put him at or near the top of best presidents since I've been around) I worry about what you and others of a similar mind will think when the pendulum swings back from Trump, because I feel generally left of you and I don't think I'm going to like it either. It feels very much like American politics is in an increasingly dangerous left-to-right phugoid cycle that is going to end in a disastrous crash. I think it could be that historians will point to the fact that the racist right pretended Obama was something that he wasn't and scared the American people into electing Trump as the root cause. Or it could be Trump is just an aberration. It's hard to say from inside the plane, the NPSB will have to sort it out after we've either all crashed and died or somehow landed safely after the pilots managed to regain control.

Sorry for the aviation metaphors, best I could do.

DColeKC
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Re: COVID19

Post by DColeKC »

mean wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:32 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:12 pm
Why we don't have term limits I'll never understand. I didn't like Obama's politics but he was certainly the gold standard for how a president should act.
We absolutely need term limits.

If you didn't like Obama's politics (and I didn't agree with everything he did, but would easily put him at or near the top of best presidents since I've been around) I worry about what you and others of a similar mind will think when the pendulum swings back from Trump, because I feel generally left of you and I don't think I'm going to like it either. It feels very much like American politics is in an increasingly dangerous left-to-right phugoid cycle that is going to end in a disastrous crash. I think it could be that historians will point to the fact that the racist right pretended Obama was something that he wasn't and scared the American people into electing Trump as the root cause. Or it could be Trump is just an aberration. It's hard to say from inside the plane, the NPSB will have to sort it out after we've either all crashed and died or somehow landed safely after the pilots managed to regain control.

Sorry for the aviation metaphors, best I could do.
I think Obama is a great man and ideal leader in regards to character and poise. I should clarify it was mainly the ACA that I didn't like and being his signature move while in office, I just generalized not liking most of his policies. I also think he got a bit carried away with some environmental and business regulations.

I personally can't stand Biden but it's hard to argue that he would be any worse for this country than Trump. I know it's a bad idea, but it seems like seeing that theres only one president, it would be nice if it had to swing back and forth every 4 years or something. I think having a oval office occupied by a democratic or republican for too long is dangerous and doesn't truly represent this countries citizens. We'd also get better candidates because it would be R vs R or D vs D compared to R vs D. Whatever happens in November, I just hope we start to climb out of this world of shit we are in.

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grovester
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Re: COVID19

Post by grovester »

If you don't think there is something fundamentally broken with the republican party after the past four years, you're either not paying attention or you don't care.

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Re: COVID19

Post by Highlander »

grovester wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:09 pm
If you don't think there is something fundamentally broken with the republican party after the past four years, you're either not paying attention or you don't care.
While I still think Trump could win in 2020 (not the popular vote though) on the basis of the democrats not being able to get their act together on a viable candidate, I have to wonder how much longer the republican party will remain viable at the national level? They will still win their share of senate and house seats in select states but shifting demographics and republican efforts to continually appeal to the lowest denominator among their constituency could result in a long hiatus for the republicans from the presidency.

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Re: COVID19

Post by Highlander »

DColeKC wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:53 pm
mean wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:32 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:12 pm
Why we don't have term limits I'll never understand. I didn't like Obama's politics but he was certainly the gold standard for how a president should act.
We absolutely need term limits.

If you didn't like Obama's politics (and I didn't agree with everything he did, but would easily put him at or near the top of best presidents since I've been around) I worry about what you and others of a similar mind will think when the pendulum swings back from Trump, because I feel generally left of you and I don't think I'm going to like it either. It feels very much like American politics is in an increasingly dangerous left-to-right phugoid cycle that is going to end in a disastrous crash. I think it could be that historians will point to the fact that the racist right pretended Obama was something that he wasn't and scared the American people into electing Trump as the root cause. Or it could be Trump is just an aberration. It's hard to say from inside the plane, the NPSB will have to sort it out after we've either all crashed and died or somehow landed safely after the pilots managed to regain control.

Sorry for the aviation metaphors, best I could do.
I think Obama is a great man and ideal leader in regards to character and poise. I should clarify it was mainly the ACA that I didn't like and being his signature move while in office, I just generalized not liking most of his policies. I also think he got a bit carried away with some environmental and business regulations.
I have probably voted republican more than I've voted democratic but the ACA is the one thing Obama did that pushed me into the democratic camp in 2016. I didn't like Hillary but I knew the republicans would try to destroy the ACA which was exactly the case and I thought it was well worth protecting. I was not impacted by ACA but as imperfect as it was, it was a step in the right direction to control an unsustainable system that was bankrupting many Americans and contributing to our poor national health care record compared to many other western nations. I had a plethora of friends and family members that benefited greatly from the ACA. Trumps attempt to destroy it without anything in it's place, and even destroy the pre-existing condition clause, has been deplorable.

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FangKC
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Re: COVID19

Post by FangKC »

I predict we are going to a single-payer healthcare at some point soon simply because the current system is going to bankrupt the country, and the only way to get it under control is federal single-payer. In a lot of cases, pharmaceutical costs are one of the major reasons since they are driving up health care spending the most.

That may be simply an expansion of Medicare to everyone. It's the easiest path. COVID might be the breaking point. No one is really talking about it right now, but COVID is going to expose the financial weakness of our present system. Many people who recover from COVID are going to be bankrupted by it. Even people with insurance who spend 10-20 days in the ICU, and followup care might exceed their insurance spending caps. Many people don't realize that many of them have insurance with these caps that won't pay after spending reaches a certain threshold.

Some companies might see it as well. I'm thinking of meat packing plants with widespread infections. Their premiums might shoot up, or they might lose their carrier completely.

A lot of hospitals are going to get stuck with serious levels of uncompensated care.

Of course, all the currently unemployed people without insurance, and getting COVID, is going to push the issue further.

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