COVID19

[phuqueue]

You could substitute any word with either salutory or pejorative connotation in my argument upthread. Introducing slavery is just a strawman, not an argument.

It's not a strawman, it's an illustration of a fact that you just unwittingly admitted yourself, that your own argument had no actual substance to it. "We've done this for hundreds of years" doesn't mean anything. "There will be a bloodbath" doesn't prove a point. Since we're talking about strawmen now, let's properly identify these as appeals to tradition and consequences, respectively.

[FangKC]

The President suggested yesterday injecting Americans with disinfectant, or exposing them to ultraviolet light to cure COVID.

[Major KC Fan]

Why am I not surprised......

[earthling]

Of course as long as he gives supporters what they want, they'll continue to support their king no matter what insane things he says. He said he could "Stand In the Middle Of Fifth Avenue And Shoot Somebody And I Wouldn't Lose Any Voters" and it's probably true. And he 'fell in love' KJU, who tortures/kills his own people. His supporters don't care.

[earthling]

No one seems to have a reasonable path for re-opening states. Georgia is too extreme with a one shot and no reasonably safe plan. Texas isn't mandating masks for general public or PPEs for workforce statewide. Vermont seems to be setting up a better pace for reopening and while they suggest masks for public it's not mandated. On other end of spectrum Cuomo today in press conf said even if NY state testing labs could double capactiy it wouldn't be enough and then said there can 'never' be enough. So essentially he's saying they can never open the state? I like him a lot and would rather seem him as president but he says some unreasonable things as well.

And while testing sounds great on paper the current tests apparently have a 20%-30% false negative rate. Could create a false sense of security in workplaces thinking everyone is negative. Antibodies test is needed but if it turns out some can be re-infected it may not be as useful. Still need to assume anyone can have it and if everyone wears masks/PPEs it should keep virus more manageable.

Seems more likely we are going to have to learn to live *with* COVID than pursue the fantasy vision we can contain it.

[kas1]

It's been contained in the countries that have tried to contain it.

Testing doesn't need to be 100% accurate in order for contact tracing to be successful. If social distancing measures are maintained to the degree that each person is only infecting 2 other people on average, then contact tracing only needs to stop 51% of the remaining transmission to lead to eventual eradication. That allows a wide margin both for missing people to test and getting false negatives.

The testing capacity that's necessary for effective contact tracing is directly proportional to the number of people who are getting infected each day, so it's impossible for there never to become a point at which the lockdown has lowered infection levels to the point where contact tracing is viable.

[earthling]

^There isn't really containment anywhere depending on how defined. A few Asian countries have it manageable but they are still having breakouts and have borders controlled. Asian countries tend to wear masks in public, is amazing we don't have that as a nationwide requirement if in public.

So how much testing does it take to open up states? Cuomo literally implied 'never' enough. Not a good answer.

[kas1]

Even if you don't trust China's numbers, South Korea went from a peak of 800 daily cases down to ~10 very quickly, and most of the new cases now are imported rather than local transmission. Hong Kong and Taiwan have 10 deaths between them.

Masks will surely become compulsory as soon as we have enough masks available for both the public and the frontline workers, and that too is mostly just a matter of waiting for infection levels to drop enough that hospitals aren't going through their equipment so quickly.

[earthling]

^Talking in circles. Those are essentially small islands with the Asian culture of compliancy. Obviously it's not working that quickly with the West's culture of individuality. It was obvious before COVID hit Europe that they/we would have no chance at managing it to the level that Asia can. Especially in US given there's no national plan, each state doing things differently. And so we'll probably need to realistically learn to live *with* COVID and give up on an ideology that the West clearly isn't able to pull off quickly enough. Requiring masks in public is probably the most simplistic method the US can more realistically pull off.

[herrfrank]

You could substitute any word with either salutory or pejorative connotation in my argument upthread. Introducing slavery is just a strawman, not an argument.

It's not a strawman, it's an illustration of a fact that you just unwittingly admitted yourself, that your own argument had no actual substance to it. "We've done this for hundreds of years" doesn't mean anything. "There will be a bloodbath" doesn't prove a point. Since we're talking about strawmen now, let's properly identify these as appeals to tradition and consequences, respectively.

It is a strawman -- introducing an unrelated topic (slavery) to a discussion on equity dividends.

Dividends are an agreement between an investor and an investment, usually a company. I don't know why you think that arrangement lacks substance. It's a private agreement between two parties. Also a longstanding financial arrangement, the dissolution or prohibition of which would cause significant disruption to the nature of US investors and the equity markets. Sorry if you disagree.

[earthling]

However using bailouts for dividends and stock buybacks is just as bad as if not worse than socialism, depending on level of socialism.

[im2kull]

So we shouldn’t do something because it would upset the rich people? No company should pay dividends then immediately need a government bailout. They’re either grossly irresponsible with their funds or lying. In either case they should be allowed to fail. It’s obvious now that the workers and consumers are the most important part of an economy, not the owners.

If someone really believes people are the perfect determinant for what kind of company is useful, through their purchasing. Then we should just give money to the end consumer, and they will spend it how they see fit.

Dividends are just an example of waste. If you have extra money, you should invest it or pay the workers more. The stockholders are still making money on ownership of the capital. If they are really not going to use it then it should be taxed, that way less money is taken out of the economy and siphoned offshore

The real problem is that you clearly have no idea how dividends work, or who they're paid to. (And why).

[longviewmo]

Updated showing 26.5M jobless claims. Broader industries are being hit including layoffs expected for state/local govts. Wouldn't be surprising if more than 3M hit next week. Some economists thought we'd peak at 25M lost by May but already exceeded and likely more coming.

Presumably people getting paid via PPP loans are now "employed", so I think that will skew the numbers back upwards, at least temporarily. I just hope there isn't a massive mess again after those funds run low. Some people (at least me and quite a few at my employer) are starting to come back from furloughs a bit too.

[WoodDraw]

So we shouldn’t do something because it would upset the rich people? No company should pay dividends then immediately need a government bailout. They’re either grossly irresponsible with their funds or lying. In either case they should be allowed to fail. It’s obvious now that the workers and consumers are the most important part of an economy, not the owners.

If someone really believes people are the perfect determinant for what kind of company is useful, through their purchasing. Then we should just give money to the end consumer, and they will spend it how they see fit.

Dividends are just an example of waste. If you have extra money, you should invest it or pay the workers more. The stockholders are still making money on ownership of the capital. If they are really not going to use it then it should be taxed, that way less money is taken out of the economy and siphoned offshore

The real problem is that you clearly have no idea how dividends work, or who they're paid to. (And why).

Yeah this is right. That's not how dividends work

[kas1]

^Talking in circles

Yes, exactly. Your entire argument has been an endless cycle of "we have no plan so we're going to fail" --> "we shouldn't bother making a plan since we're going to fail"

[Riverite]

So we shouldn’t do something because it would upset the rich people? No company should pay dividends then immediately need a government bailout. They’re either grossly irresponsible with their funds or lying. In either case they should be allowed to fail. It’s obvious now that the workers and consumers are the most important part of an economy, not the owners.

If someone really believes people are the perfect determinant for what kind of company is useful, through their purchasing. Then we should just give money to the end consumer, and they will spend it how they see fit.

Dividends are just an example of waste. If you have extra money, you should invest it or pay the workers more. The stockholders are still making money on ownership of the capital. If they are really not going to use it then it should be taxed, that way less money is taken out of the economy and siphoned offshore

The real problem is that you clearly have no idea how dividends work, or who they're paid to. (And why).

Yeah this is right. That's not how dividends work

I get that you don’t think I understand what a dividend is. I can assure you I do. If you would please tell me what was inaccurate about my statement I’d be happy to change and acknowledge.

Two things I understand that dividends can be paid more than once on a reoccurring basis. Also when I said taxed I meant the companies should be taxed more if they have money for dividends. We have a system where some of the biggest companies are paying hardly any tax at all, I find it gross that instead of reinvesting profits they are giving people money for stocks when they are already getting capital gains.

Back to loans, if a business gets a loan it shouldn’t be used for dividends or buybacks, as neither are true financial obligations. There is precedent where even preferred stockholders are not paid. Besides it’s a waste of resources. Money used to pay workers more to increase productivity or expand to new markets is more beneficial for the company and the economy.

[earthling]

^Talking in circles

Yes, exactly. Your entire argument has been an endless cycle of "we have no plan so we're going to fail" --> "we shouldn't bother making a plan since we're going to fail"

Not what I've been saying Mr. Spinster. We have shown already that we are not able to 'contain' to the degree that Asia somewhat has. The stats already show this - the West is doing poorly compared to most of Asia. We'll have to adapt to that reality. I've also been saying we need to cautiously bring back workforce with PPE/masks for all public yet the states have poor/no plans not involving that. Specifically saying there needs to be a better plan. Also pointed out Cuomo said he can't open state back up until enough testing while also said NY testing labs will 'never' have enough capacity for testing, implying he can't ever open the state up. That doesn't make any more sense than what red states are doing. You spun it into something else like a Trumpster media relations dept.

[earthling]

Presumably people getting paid via PPP loans are now "employed", so I think that will skew the numbers back upwards, at least temporarily. I just hope there isn't a massive mess again after those funds run low. Some people (at least me and quite a few at my employer) are starting to come back from furloughs a bit too.

The good news is that of states that report if layoffs are temp/permanent, the avg is about 90% claiming it's temporary. But as each week goes by with lockdown, temp could become permanent over time. And then there's many getting a pay reduction (my sister who works in hospital admin just found out today about a pay cut).

We may end up closer to Scenario 1 by end of year but consumer confidence could be low long term heading us toward S1.2 or S1.3.

I'm still in Florida and the top news is that unemployment isn't' being paid for most, around 90% not getting payment. The system is overloaded and they aren't taking new applications over weekend so that they can catch up with payments. It's a mess.

[FangKC]

According to ABC News:

In the USA, 50,890 known deaths of COVID.

422 deaths in New York in the last 24 hours. Death toll going down there.

Field hospital at Javits Center in New York City will close next month. Navy ship, Comfort, will leave next week.

After outcry and backlash, Trump now claims he was being sarcastic over his suggestions to inject disinfectants and use UV light to cure COVID cases. This begs the question, should a president be using sarcasm during a live press briefing during a pandemic that is killing thousands of Americans? And apparently, his sarcasm wasn't evidence to Americans watching because the CDC was receiving calls from the public the comments.

In an ABC poll, 72 percent believe moving to quickly to re-open country is a greater threat than moving too slowly.

Captain Crozier, captain of the USS Roosevelt, might be re-instated after being removed by an acting Navy Secretary.

[WoodDraw]

The real problem is that you clearly have no idea how dividends work, or who they're paid to. (And why).

Yeah this is right. That's not how dividends work

I get that you don’t think I understand what a dividend is. I can assure you I do. If you would please tell me what was inaccurate about my statement I’d be happy to change and acknowledge.

Two things I understand that dividends can be paid more than once on a reoccurring basis. Also when I said taxed I meant the companies should be taxed more if they have money for dividends. We have a system where some of the biggest companies are paying hardly any tax at all, I find it gross that instead of reinvesting profits they are giving people money for stocks when they are already getting capital gains.

Back to loans, if a business gets a loan it shouldn’t be used for dividends or buybacks, as neither are true financial obligations. There is precedent where even preferred stockholders are not paid. Besides it’s a waste of resources. Money used to pay workers more to increase productivity or expand to new markets is more beneficial for the company and the economy.

"Dividends are just an example of waste. If you have extra money, you should invest it or pay the workers more. The stockholders are still making money on ownership of the capital. If they are really not going to use it then it should be taxed, that way less money is taken out of the economy and siphoned offshore"

If you think that's accurate than there isn't much of a discussion to have. You're equating like five different discussions into one. All of them are good discussion to have, but if that's how you think these things work it's just fundamentaly a waste of time to talk about this because it's wrong.