COVID19

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kas1
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Re: COVID19

Post by kas1 »

earthling wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:34 am ^The questionable study that claims that the 'real' infection rate could be 50X+ higher has another study that indicates the same.
Another study done by several of the same researchers which has the same flaws and the same miscalculations as the first study (actually even more egregious this time -- they simply assumed that the rate of false positives is 0 despite knowing for a fact that their tests do produce false positives). The people doing these studies have ulterior motives. They were active in conservative media pushing a narrative that the scientific consensus on the fatality rate was off by "orders of magnitude" and now they are publishing complete nonsense and refusing to correct basic, unequivocal computational errors. It's scientific fraud.
earthling
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Re: COVID19

Post by earthling »

When capitalism is worse than socialism...

"S&P 500 companies spent $7 trillion on buybacks and dividends and “been rewarded’ by coronavirus bailouts, says Social Capital CEO"
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sp-50 ... 2020-04-22
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grovester
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Re: COVID19

Post by grovester »

earthling wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:25 pm When capitalism is worse than socialism...

"S&P 500 companies spent $7 trillion on buybacks and dividends and “been rewarded’ by coronavirus bailouts, says Social Capital CEO"
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sp-50 ... 2020-04-22
But according to McConnell, if your state pensions are too expansive you are expected to go bankrupt.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... bankruptcy
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FangKC
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Re: COVID19

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According to ABC News:

COVID killed at least two people in California at least three weeks earlier than the first reported COVID death.

In the USA, 46,399 reported known COVID deaths.

In New Jersey: more than 5,000 reported known deaths

Massachusetts: more than 2,000 reported known deaths -- the number doubled in a week.

A lead doctor at the federal Department of Health and Human Services, who lead a key agency to develop a COVID vaccine, has been fired for speaking out against not studying the anti-malaria drug being touted by the Trump Administration. A Veterans Administration study has shown the drug resulted in a higher death rate than not using it. The doctor called it politicalization of drug testing.

Fifty-one food processing plants have been shut down due to COVID.

The Publix supermarket chain is buying produce -- that would otherwise go to waste -- to donate to food banks.

COVID can cause organ failure in those with underlying or chronic illnesses -- thought to attack blood vessels.

Blood plasma infusions from people recovered from COVID, and an drug developed to fight Ebola, seem to be helping people.

Sweden has a higher death rate per capita than its' neighbors. Their strategy is to develop "herd immunity."

A study has shown that men are more likely to die from COVID. People with diabetes more likely to be put on a ventilator.

Two cats in New York have tested positive for COVID. The pets' owner had also tested positive.

Three tigers and three lions in a New York zoo have tested positive.
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FangKC
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Re: COVID19

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MARC is tracking COVID cases in the KC Metro.

http://marc-gis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/op ... fad014feae
herrfrank
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Re: COVID19

Post by herrfrank »

earthling wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:25 pm When capitalism is worse than socialism...

"S&P 500 companies spent $7 trillion on buybacks and dividends and “been rewarded’ by coronavirus bailouts, says Social Capital CEO"
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sp-50 ... 2020-04-22
I am sorry, but dividends are not a problem, certainly not "worse than socialism."

Dividends are an aspect of the American economy for hundreds of years, and many, many people (including financial plans in place longer than anyone has been alive) have based their financial livelihoods on such aspects of our economy.

To restrict or ban dividends would engender a bloodbath.
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grovester
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Re: COVID19

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FangKC wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:06 pm MARC is tracking COVID cases in the KC Metro.

http://marc-gis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/op ... fad014feae
Nice. I've been following this for the past month.

https://www.reddit.com/r/kansascity/com ... s_tracker/
Riverite
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Re: COVID19

Post by Riverite »

So we shouldn’t do something because it would upset the rich people? No company should pay dividends then immediately need a government bailout. They’re either grossly irresponsible with their funds or lying. In either case they should be allowed to fail. It’s obvious now that the workers and consumers are the most important part of an economy, not the owners.

If someone really believes people are the perfect determinant for what kind of company is useful, through their purchasing. Then we should just give money to the end consumer, and they will spend it how they see fit.

Dividends are just an example of waste. If you have extra money, you should invest it or pay the workers more. The stockholders are still making money on ownership of the capital. If they are really not going to use it then it should be taxed, that way less money is taken out of the economy and siphoned offshore
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grovester
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Re: COVID19

Post by grovester »

Clay County opening early.

https://www.kctv5.com/coronavirus/clay- ... 7e25b.html

Wonder if that was before Trump came out against Georgia's reopening?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... n-n1190061
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Re: COVID19

Post by mykn »

Riverite wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:11 pm So we shouldn’t do something because it would upset the rich people? No company should pay dividends then immediately need a government bailout. They’re either grossly irresponsible with their funds or lying. In either case they should be allowed to fail. It’s obvious now that the workers and consumers are the most important part of an economy, not the owners.

If someone really believes people are the perfect determinant for what kind of company is useful, through their purchasing. Then we should just give money to the end consumer, and they will spend it how they see fit.

Dividends are just an example of waste. If you have extra money, you should invest it or pay the workers more. The stockholders are still making money on ownership of the capital. If they are really not going to use it then it should be taxed, that way less money is taken out of the economy and siphoned offshore
Louder for the bootlickers in the back
earthling
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Re: COVID19

Post by earthling »

As expected, 4.4M more jobless claims for 5th week of declines totaling 26.5M.

The US economy has now erased all job gains since the Great Recession. (Actually it's down to 1998 level)
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/23/the-us- ... ssion.html

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earthling
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Re: COVID19

Post by earthling »

Updated showing 26.5M jobless claims. Broader industries are being hit including layoffs expected for state/local govts. Wouldn't be surprising if more than 3M hit next week. Some economists thought we'd peak at 25M lost by May but already exceeded and likely more coming.

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Re: COVID19

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phuqueue
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Re: COVID19

Post by phuqueue »

herrfrank wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:56 pm
earthling wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:25 pm When capitalism is worse than socialism...

"S&P 500 companies spent $7 trillion on buybacks and dividends and “been rewarded’ by coronavirus bailouts, says Social Capital CEO"
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sp-50 ... 2020-04-22
I am sorry, but dividends are not a problem, certainly not "worse than socialism."

Dividends are an aspect of the American economy for hundreds of years, and many, many people (including financial plans in place longer than anyone has been alive) have based their financial livelihoods on such aspects of our economy.

To restrict or ban dividends would engender a bloodbath.
Surely you can see how, if you replace "dividends" with "slavery" in this post, it's all still true. I'm not saying dividends are comparable to slavery, but "we've done this for hundreds of years and people will be furious if you get rid of it" doesn't actually prove that something is desirable or defensible.
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Re: COVID19

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taxi
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Re: COVID19

Post by taxi »

^Thank you. This thread needed a little comic relief.
flyingember
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Re: COVID19

Post by flyingember »

phuqueue wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:44 am
herrfrank wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:56 pm
earthling wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:25 pm When capitalism is worse than socialism...

"S&P 500 companies spent $7 trillion on buybacks and dividends and “been rewarded’ by coronavirus bailouts, says Social Capital CEO"
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sp-50 ... 2020-04-22
I am sorry, but dividends are not a problem, certainly not "worse than socialism."

Dividends are an aspect of the American economy for hundreds of years, and many, many people (including financial plans in place longer than anyone has been alive) have based their financial livelihoods on such aspects of our economy.

To restrict or ban dividends would engender a bloodbath.
Surely you can see how, if you replace "dividends" with "slavery" in this post, it's all still true. I'm not saying dividends are comparable to slavery, but "we've done this for hundreds of years and people will be furious if you get rid of it" doesn't actually prove that something is desirable or defensible.
The problem in your logic is when slavery ended it didn't end the dividends you gain from human capital in an agrarian society.

Imagine you run a labor intensive farm production, either because you don't have free capital for machinery or the task is more costly to automate than the net results. To this day chili peppers are nearly impossible to mechanize the picking of.

Slavery worked for many owners because they were able to benefit from the offspring of a slave. The offspring cost them nothing to purchase. Selling a slave child produced a high dividend.

When slavery ended the dividend from labor being a thing still remained true. Each former slave family directly earned the dividend of having many children when their children became old enough to provide useful labor. You can still see this across the world today where families reliant on farm labor shrink in size as farms mechanize. The value of a child to bring in money decreased over time.

So since we're talking business, dividends weren't the problem, it was that the dividends came from owning slaves that was the problem.

The problem today is the value of labor decreased with greater mechanization and automation. Dividends shifted to being the result of investment in machinery and materials.

So it's more financially advantageous to reduce labor costs. Look at a comany like Amazon and Walmart. They reduced the total labor costs for retail in their own ways by centralizing many functions into fewer locations. This was inevitable in society and job losses were inevitable. It's the current rapid timeline that's the problem more than the specific change.

Dividends still aren't inherently bad. It's still the business practice that's the problem where they take advantage of their workers.

In a society that increasingly automates work someone who can gain knowledge and utilize it to reduce labor needs further will be worth more than someone who can provide capital and so the direct workers should be compensated the most. This is the stakeholder model compare to today's shareholder model.
There's arguments that increased automation will require a minimum basic income as fewer and fewer workers will be needed in the labor market.

And even then, dividends will still be valuable in that they're dividends from gaining knowledge.

Eventually dividends will be the result of exploration and discovery. In Star Trek the people who are willing to give their time to the betterment of humanity by serving in Starfleet are given free passage to experience the universe. In this world, in theory they gave up the acquisition of wealth in order to work with other species to find ways to stop hunger, famine, war and all the conflicts of humanity. It's a pre-automation labor model in the story but it shows humanity gaining the dividends of their efforts in a new way.


This should show you everything wrong with the US response to Covid. People are more interested in their personal business model rather than the needs of society as a whole. The conservative model isn't strictly wrong in trying to keep what we have working, but we only should do so as much as it moves away from reducing the ills of societ.

The core issue is yet again our decisions benefit the few who gain dividends off the current system. It's political corruption at it's worst and we can see it because people will die in large numbers when we get it wrong.

We can see more people recognizing the delayed shift that needs to and will happen. Harvard, Shake Shack are examples of companies that took a bailout and the outlash required politicians who were fine with them getting money to reverse course. We have serious discussions over implementing a basic income for everyone.
herrfrank
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Re: COVID19

Post by herrfrank »

You could substitute any word with either salutory or pejorative connotation in my argument upthread. Introducing slavery is just a strawman, not an argument.

Dividends represent the (slow) return of capital on an investment. They pay usually a little more than the going interest rate, and sound companies and reasonable investors have used this method as an investment vehicle for years, because it is efficient and only mildly depleting on the balance sheet. There are two parties to an investment, the investor and the investee, usually an entity of some type. Any arrangement to attract the investor and his capital, needs to benefit those two parties. Lots of the other discussion is hot air: irrelevant.

The notion that dividends are bankrupting a company means a poorly run company. I agree that stock buybacks are bad policy, however.
Last edited by herrfrank on Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
flyingember
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Re: COVID19

Post by flyingember »

herrfrank wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:59 am The notion that dividends are bankrupting a company means a poorly run company. I agree that stock buybacks are bad policy, however.
Not at all.

A stock buyback means they are benefiting their shareholders which is exactly what a business should be doing. They are turning the results of the business into capital for people who the business is designed to benefit.

Let's say someone decides to end the business and sell everything off. Let's say it's a Chiefs superbowl tshirt stand. It wasn't necessarily poorly run, let's assume they profited off bankrupting their business by taking the dividends of their labor.

You have yet another example of something that's not good or bad, it depends on if the specific actions, the specific business model.
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grovester
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Re: COVID19

Post by grovester »

Where's my fucking wine mask?
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