Ferguson, Missouri

[shinatoo]

They should be lucky that real CS isn't being used in Ferguson..

Yes, thank god for the benevolent police, who are really pulling their punches on this one. Are you fucking kidding?

I don't get what you're saying. The Police have been standing down largely compared to earlier in the week, and part of that is using weaker tear gas and not responding to the looting of stores. Funny how people cry foul, so they let things go wild, then people cry foul again for the police not supporting them! You can't have it both ways!

Yes you can. It's not a choice between have police show up as a paramilitary force, guns drawn and tear gas blazing; or, not have the police show up at all. The police should be doing their jobs by PROTECTING and SERVING the community. Not ASSAULTING or IGNORING it.

[brewcrew1000]

Another officer involved shooting in St Louis, about 4 miles from epicenter, http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /14295137/

[WinchesterMysteryHouse]

it's not just ferguson PD, it's STL County PD and backup from surrounding small municipalities. STL County's jurisdiction is a million people and they are acting like the Hazzard County sheriff, only with equipment straight out of Fallujah.

It is completely outrageous. Underscores the idea of "two americas" - where white, gun-toting protestors can literally say they are going to fire on the federal bureau of land management and are not remotely fucked with, but lawful protests are met with riot gear and tools of war - which, not surprisingly, only escalates things. can you imagine what would happen if some black folks showed up at rallies tonight with the same guns as the Bundy protestors? it would be an instant bloodbath.

It's like Ferguson/County PD is doing everything it can to do exactly the opposite of the right thing at every turn.

Word

[phuqueue]

I don't get what you're saying. The Police have been standing down largely compared to earlier in the week, and part of that is using weaker tear gas and not responding to the looting of stores. Funny how people cry foul, so they let things go wild, then people cry foul again for the police not supporting them! You can't have it both ways!

Yes you can. It's not a choice between have police show up as a paramilitary force, guns drawn and tear gas blazing; or, not have the police show up at all. The police should be doing their jobs by PROTECTING and SERVING the community. Not ASSAULTING or IGNORING it.

Bingo. I don't understand how anybody who believes in any of the ideals America purports to represent (although it has frequently been bad at upholding those ideals, admittedly) can just nod their head as police toting actual, literal military hardware crack down on civilian protesters with overwhelming force. "Democracy" for the white and wealthy, fascism for the rest.

The police have absolutely not been "standing down" compared to earlier. If you're getting your news from CNN the next day, it might look like that, but any number of outlets run live streams of the protests every night. The police have certainly not been employing a lighter touch than before. Even if they were, so what? "Compared to earlier in the week" tacitly acknowledges that they haven't been so, uhh, accommodating all along. Is that just water under the bridge?

I'm curious when they ever "let things go wild." There was that one day when the state troopers took over and drew back, and reports were that the atmosphere was festive and non-violent. And then the next day local police named the killer, dropped the "robbery" video, and Ron Johnson (the highway patrolman who was ostensibly in charge) basically lost all substantive authority as city and county police resumed their antagonistic posture.

And for the record, I'm not sure I've heard anybody in Ferguson demanding a stronger police presence, so I'm not sure who you think is trying to "have it both ways" anyway, notwithstanding the fact that, as shinatoo points out, "you can't have it both ways" is patently bullshit.

[loftguy]

it's not just ferguson PD, it's STL County PD and backup from surrounding small municipalities. STL County's jurisdiction is a million people and they are acting like the Hazzard County sheriff, only with equipment straight out of Fallujah.

It is completely outrageous. Underscores the idea of "two americas" - where white, gun-toting protestors can literally say they are going to fire on the federal bureau of land management and are not remotely fucked with, but lawful protests are met with riot gear and tools of war - which, not surprisingly, only escalates things. can you imagine what would happen if some black folks showed up at rallies tonight with the same guns as the Bundy protestors? it would be an instant bloodbath.

It's like Ferguson/County PD is doing everything it can to do exactly the opposite of the right thing at every turn.

Winchester, thanks for bringing up Chrizow's statement again. It is really worthy of note.

I wish every American could be made to shut up, be come to Jesus honest and hear this.

For me, it's all here.

[brewcrew1000]

I don't know if i remember but did the Rodney King beating cause the LA Riots and was there actually a peaceful protest that was overshadowed by those riots?

I remember when that truck driver got pulled out of his semi and hit with a bunch of bricks, that was some scary stuff

[grovester]

it's not just ferguson PD, it's STL County PD and backup from surrounding small municipalities. STL County's jurisdiction is a million people and they are acting like the Hazzard County sheriff, only with equipment straight out of Fallujah.

It is completely outrageous. Underscores the idea of "two americas" - where white, gun-toting protestors can literally say they are going to fire on the federal bureau of land management and are not remotely fucked with, but lawful protests are met with riot gear and tools of war - which, not surprisingly, only escalates things. can you imagine what would happen if some black folks showed up at rallies tonight with the same guns as the Bundy protestors? it would be an instant bloodbath.

It's like Ferguson/County PD is doing everything it can to do exactly the opposite of the right thing at every turn.

Winchester, thanks for bringing up Chrizow's statement again. It is really worthy of note.

I wish every American could be made to shut up, be come to Jesus honest and hear this.

For me, it's all here.

This is why I'm not sure it's "Obama's Katrina", it dovetails with his latest push about inequality and disenfranchisement. He will need to play it carefully certainly, but assuming it ends without further tragedy, could fold into the narrative he's been trying to spread.

[phuqueue]

Seems a lot calmer and more peaceful tonight. Cops just standing back, protesters just milling around. Got a couple friends there tonight, one posted on facebook: "This is so peaceful. The journalists were hella disappointed until a fight broke out between two drunk guys near me and then I got shoved out the way. Pretty sure that's all you'll see on the news tonight." Hopefully doesn't ramp up as the night goes on.

[warwickland]

it appeared peaceful until one guy in a small group threw something at a cop.

watching a stream mon night, it appeared that a massive, dense group of cameramen and journalists were actually a big part of the group. it was a bizarre information age (that like a 90s term?) scene...cameramen rotating back and forth trying to get a shot, right in the faces of other journalists and cameramen. the media circus has become its own story at this point.

but you aren't going to hear that.

[im2kull]

Yes you can. It's not a choice between have police show up as a paramilitary force, guns drawn and tear gas blazing; or, not have the police show up at all. The police should be doing their jobs by PROTECTING and SERVING the community. Not ASSAULTING or IGNORING it.

Like I said, it's mostly smoke they're dispersing anyways (People are uneducated and simply want to hype it as "Gas" when it's SMOKE), the gas they are dispersing is NOT military grade CS..it's a weak gas that doesn't inhibit anyone, just slightly irritates, and they're not drawing their guns..they're holding them and only drawing on people that they're shooting RUBBER bullets at. If you can't deal with a police response like that (Non-Violent) to a Violent threat to all, then you need to pack up and move. It's not like the police are throwing molotov cocktails and shooting real bullets at innocent protestors...

[loftguy]

Yes you can. It's not a choice between have police show up as a paramilitary force, guns drawn and tear gas blazing; or, not have the police show up at all. The police should be doing their jobs by PROTECTING and SERVING the community. Not ASSAULTING or IGNORING it.

Like I said, it's mostly smoke they're dispersing anyways (People are uneducated and simply want to hype it as "Gas" when it's SMOKE), the gas they are dispersing is NOT military grade CS..it's a weak gas that doesn't inhibit anyone, just slightly irritates, and they're not drawing their guns..they're holding them and only drawing on people that they're shooting RUBBER bullets at. If you can't deal with a police response like that (Non-Violent) to a Violent threat to all, then you need to pack up and move. It's not like the police are throwing molotov cocktails and shooting real bullets at innocent protestors...

You express opinions here which are not completely supported by fact.

Yes, it could be worse. It also should be much better than some of what has been exhibited by officials representing us.

[im2kull]

You express opinions here which are not completely supported by fact.

I'm lost at what is opinion and not supported by fact? The fact that police don't use full strength CS (Real tear) gas, nor do they apply what they do use in a manner that could cause real chemical weapon exposure, or the fact that they're being shot at with real bullets, having molotov cocktails thrown at, or anything else I said?

--edit--
Wait, it must be the rubber bullets. You're right...the police ARE shooting real bullets at these people..not rubber bullets! LOL


PS - Saying that the cop executed this man is supported by what..fact..exactly?

[phuqueue]

It is worth noting that there have been approximately zero reports, except from the cops themselves, of Molotov cocktails being thrown. There was one photo, now at least a week old, of protesters apparently trying to light what appears to be a Molotov cocktail. As far as I know, there is no other documentation of any Molotov cocktails at the protests, only the words of police. There have been reports of live ammunition fire, but no cop has actually been shot. The only shootings I've heard of so far are minor shootings of protesters (who, admittedly, could have been shot either accidentally or intentionally by other protesters), and last night a journalist tried asking several cops if any of their guns were loaded with live ammunition and they all declined to answer.

Reports on the ground from media and other observers pretty consistently describe indiscriminate use of teargas (not smoke -- people can tell the difference, and while it's smoke sometimes, it's teargas others) and other police provocation. Somebody posted a link on the first page documenting the reactions of various military veterans to police tactics. I've heard from other veterans personally about how ridiculous police tactics have been, how soldiers in active war zones are trained to handle civil unrest. The police don't have a clue. They complain of "Molotov cocktails," but have not produced any. They complain of people throwing "bottles," but decline to elaborate that these are plastic water bottles. They arrest dozens of people, but the vast majority of these arrests are for "failure to disperse" rather than for looting, vandalism, assaulting an officer, etc. These "violent" protests are producing tons of arrests for non-violent offenses.

Although I understand in the abstract where it comes from, I nonetheless find it incredible that anybody can look at what the police are doing in Ferguson with approval. Even the very most generous read is that they're utterly (but innocently, because we're being as generous as possible) incompetent. That anybody is white knighting for the cops here is disgusting. When the state fights the people, who the fuck sides with the state?

[aknowledgeableperson]

It is worth noting that there have been approximately zero reports, except from the cops themselves, of Molotov cocktails being thrown.

There have been a few reports by reporters seeing Molotov cocktails.
Washington Post

On one corner of a battered stretch of West Florissant Avenue, the epicenter of ongoing protests, young men pull dark scarves up over their mouths and lob molotov cocktails at police from behind makeshift barricades built of bricks and wood planks. They call the gasoline-filled bottles “poor man’s bombs.”

MTV News

Despite requests from police to disperse before sundown, CNN reported that photographers captured images of young men lighting Molotov cocktails as well as crowd-control stun grenades that had been detonated in the street.

Protesters try unsuccessfully to light a Molotov cocktail as the police prepare to advance on Wednesday

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... z3AxnN4D5v

[phuqueue]

That last quote is the one photo that I mentioned before. The MTV News one is a secondhand report of a CNN report that could very well also be referring to that one photo. Since you didn't provide links, I don't know where you're actually pulling those quotes from or what the context is, but WaPo's main guy on the ground, Wesley Lowery (who was arrested in McDonald's last week), apparently hasn't seen any: https://twitter.com/WesleyLowery/status ... 2511451136

Every reference I've seen to Molotov cocktails has either been a police quote or has gone to that same photograph (which, according to your NYDN link, the protesters were not even able to light). Has there been any actual documentation of any others? I've heard a lot of quotes from the police and I've seen very little actual proof.

[loftguy]

That last quote is the one photo that I mentioned before. The MTV News one is a secondhand report of a CNN report that could very well also be referring to that one photo. Since you didn't provide links, I don't know where you're actually pulling those quotes from or what the context is, but WaPo's main guy on the ground, Wesley Lowery (who was arrested in McDonald's last week), apparently hasn't seen any: https://twitter.com/WesleyLowery/status ... 2511451136

Every reference I've seen to Molotov cocktails has either been a police quote or has gone to that same photograph (which, according to your NYDN link, the protesters were not even able to light). Has there been any actual documentation of any others? I've heard a lot of quotes from the police and I've seen very little actual proof.

ABC news at 7.. this morning, covered a conference (yesterday/today?) where Captain Johnson of the Missouri Highway Patrol unveiled a Molotov cocktail which had been 'seized'. No other details were available, per the commentator. It felt contrived and awkward. Left me wondering who told Johnson he had to do this.

BTW, I am rooting for the establishment to get its act together and change the course of this story. We are the establishment. If 'we' can't get this terrible situation corrected, we have all failed.

[chaglang]

The images of law enforcement operating without any badge or nametag are troubling. It's already difficult to tell who is in charge or which law enforcement agency is deployed where. This adds a layer of anonymity.

[grovester]

The images of law enforcement operating without any badge or nametag are troubling. It's already difficult to tell who is in charge or which law enforcement agency is deployed where. This adds a layer of anonymity.

Right out of Putin's playbook in Ukraine.

[warwickland]

i'll just repost this post of mine in advance in reaction to the new north st. louis video of a robbery suspect being shot by metro cops that i saw on the front page of the huffington post when i was looking for that bullshit "be glad ferguson didnt happen where you live..." article.

That's (somewhat) standard practice, even if the video is shocking, especially in a higher crime area. The guy came at the cops with a knife. Anyone knows that if you advance on a cop with a knife in the United States, there's a good chance you will be shot. He wanted suicide by cop, and he got his wish, and that's fucked up. That would not have happened in Germany (or wherever).

I personally knew someone that was shot and killed (white) for just putting a vehicle in reverse during a probable drunk driving stop in metro St Louis, the cop unloaded his clip into the back window of his truck. Shot and killed his friend as well, and the girls that were slumped in the back have to live with all of that. That was also legal.

Police need to be trained in using less-than-lethal force during certain situations. Obviously the guy in the video was fucked up in some way, this wasn't a gang related ambush on a parked police cruiser or something. I know that the white guy in the truck had some mental issues. The culture of police departments need to massively change, and so does American culture.

Guns guns guns...the frontier is fucking closed. It's motherfucking time America entered adulthood. It's not going well.

In a strange time of my life, where I thought I was looking forward to becoming more mellow, measured, and adult, i feel myself feeling decisively more radical lately.

[aknowledgeableperson]

I am not sure what all of these various inquiries are going to find but I think many assume there will be a finding that the cop used excessive force and that justice will occur when he is charged. Wonder what will happen if the inquiries find the use of force was justified? Will justice be served in that instance? Or if the different inquiries come to different conclusions?