Ferguson, Missouri

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aknowledgeableperson
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by aknowledgeableperson » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:59 pm

I am not sure what it proves as regards to guilt or innocence. Really nothing. I think in this particular case the officer, in his mind, feels he did nothing wrong, or that it was a honest mistake in the heat of the moment.

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by loftguy » Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:04 pm

aknowledgeableperson wrote:I am not sure what it proves as regards to guilt or innocence. Really nothing. I think in this particular case the officer, in his mind, feels he did nothing wrong, or that it was a honest mistake in the heat of the moment.
On what is this assessment based? Has the officer offered any statement at this point?

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grovester
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by grovester » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:34 pm

Not testifying would have been a disaster for not only the officer's reputation, but that of the department and anyone else supporting the officer. Wasn't really a choice.

To your question, akp is making things up again.

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by aknowledgeableperson » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:28 pm

On what is this assessment based? Has the officer offered any statement at this point?
Just going on what others have said about "why" would he testify. It is extremely rare that a subject of a grand jury hearing will testify. No lawyer present. Presents his/her case and faces questions that may not be allowed in a trial and with the possibility of perjury charges if trial occurs and testimony changes (if testifies at trial). In other words there is much risk, especially since there is an assumption of guilt instead of innocence in a case like this.

Wasn't really a choice.
Why? Many feel it is a done deal, that there will be an indictment, so why not wait until trial? When your attorney can cross examine witnesses and present any witnesses and evidence that are in your favor. Why testify behind close doors when you can openly testify in a public trial?

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by loftguy » Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:55 pm

aknowledgeableperson wrote:I am not sure what it proves as regards to guilt or innocence. Really nothing. I think in this particular case the officer, in his mind, feels he did nothing wrong, or that it was a honest mistake in the heat of the moment.
Recently, I have been reading in some depth about the abolitionist John Brown. More than 150 years ago, John Brown flipped out. He became deranged. He killed supporters of slavery and he committed acts that could only be described as crazy.

It's my view that the man saw slavery in a context that is something closer to that which we view slavery today. Likely coupled with underlying psychological fracture, his utter abhorrence and contempt for the sins of his neighbors devoured him and ultimately pushed him over the thin edge.

What it must have been like to be in Jackson County Missouri in 1860, where every fifth resident of the county was subhuman chattel. (Several Missouri county populations along the Missouri River were more than 50% slave) As unbelievable as it seems today, the white population generally saw slavery as a wholly normal part of life and needed no excuse to continue. Abolition was seen as the criminal act and any questioning of the status quo was a direct threat to civil society.

Today, many light skinned people feel threatened by inference that racism continues to exist and that dark skinned Americans are still bound by twisted convention and have a lesser existence. I don't know what it will take for deniers to think without filtering. This may not be possible. It may require turnover of generations, continued miscengenation and greater distance from civil wounds.

As it stands for now, some number among us are open to the possibilities that police tactics and decisions in Ferguson may have been inappropriate, or even criminal. I don't know what actually happened in the moments when Officer Wilson shot Michael Brown. That's to be determined by our system. The best I can ask for now is that reasoned and reasonable justice be served.

My 'feeling', or hope, is that at some nearby date the status quo of today will be as unimaginable as owning humans as breeding stock.

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by LenexatoKCMO » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:41 pm

I think it is far too limited to view the source of the problem as merely one of US history. There are signs that humans have been naturally inclined to be mistrustful and hostile to those who look different than their own tribe since long before recorded history. A lot of progress has been made the last two hundred years but it is a fight against basic human instincts. To me, the most disappointing development is the regression in progress displayed by baby boomers in western society. In their youth, this group looked so enthusiastic about making a dramatic step forward in both acknowledging and repudiating the instinct. Fast forward to their sunset years and it seems so many from this group have devolved back to a state little better than their parents before them. I can't count how many white, male, baby boomers I have encountered who seemed to have reconciled in their mind that it is ok to view minorities as broadly troubled/lazy/defective, but as long as they don't use any overtly racist language they can view themselves as post-racial. And anything that questions that discrepancy is automatically "playing the race card". I think it will be at least a few more generations before mankind truly gets these instincts under control.

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by aknowledgeableperson » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:14 pm

There are signs that humans have been naturally inclined to be mistrustful and hostile to those who look different than their own tribe since long before recorded history.
Just look how many of the "native" Europeans look down on the immigrants in their countries. And earlier in this country's history the English looked down on the Irish and many other immigrant groups that came here. And let's not forget how the Asians can feel about other Asians. Yes, it is universal.
I think it will be at least a few more generations before mankind truly gets these instincts under control.


I don't know if it will ever get completely under control but as more and more interracial and multi-ethnic offspring come into existence there should be less differences. There is a fear however that there will always be some who will want to find out how they are different and better than someone else.

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by aknowledgeableperson » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:23 pm

As it stands for now, some number among us are open to the possibilities that police tactics and decisions in Ferguson may have been inappropriate, or even criminal. I don't know what actually happened in the moments when Officer Wilson shot Michael Brown. That's to be determined by our system. The best I can ask for now is that reasoned and reasonable justice be served.
My statement about the officer feeling he did nothing wrong was not based on a white/black or slavery/John Brown thing but more along the lines the shooting was justified due to the fight and a fear for his safety, heighten by the heat of the moment. I too hope for "reasoned and reasonable justice be served" but no matter how this case eventually comes out there will be a segment of our society that will feel justice was not served.

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by brewcrew1000 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:59 am

Thank you for locking the St Louis thread based on that video, that was just sickening, I have lost all respect for St Louis and I don't know if i will visit that city again.

http://deadspin.com/cardinals-fans-get- ... socialflow

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by chingon » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:19 pm

brewcrew1000 wrote:Thank you for locking the St Louis thread based on that video, that was just sickening, I have lost all respect for St Louis and I don't know if i will visit that city again.
Surely you are being sarcastic? I mean, no one on earth loathes the St Louis Cardinals and their fanbase more than me, but the people in that video aren't representative of St Louis. They are representative of A LOT of white people. Hell, most of them probably don't even live in St Louis. You're talking about a (primarily southern) fanbase that stretches from Sedalia to Nashville, from Iowa to Arkansas. I would bet 75% of people at the ballgame haven't set foot in the city of St Louis since the last time they went to a Cards game. And the whole lesson of Ferguson, to my mind, is that the kind of behavior and attitudes evidenced in that video are ubiquitous in white culture. You are absolutely as likely to see a very similar response had the same scenario occured in Milwaukee, in Detroit, in KC, in Cincinnati, etc.

Go back to St Louis, it's a wonderful little town - as you well know. Just don't go during race riots or Cardinals games. Both bring out the worst in people and, also, the worst people...
Last edited by chingon on Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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grovester
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by grovester » Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:37 pm

If people judged KC based on a Chiefs game we'd be screwed.

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warwickland
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by warwickland » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:33 pm

grovester wrote:If people judged KC based on a Chiefs game we'd be screwed.
yeah, the lower midwest is a fucked up animal. both kc and st. louis are in the same boat wherein there's an island of progressive minded people surrounded by rednecks and hoosiers, sometimes closer than you realize. frankly i'd feel worse if kc ever ended up in the same situation. we are used to being knocked around by the media, and ending up in fucked up situations. we'll be alright...not that you guys are worried, hahah. ;-)

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by mean » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:24 am

Sometimes the progressive minded people are also rednecks. A previous version of me would have argued that truly progressive minded people wouldn't watch a degenerate, violent sport like football anyway.

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by IraGlacialis » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:19 am

warwickland wrote:
grovester wrote:If people judged KC based on a Chiefs game we'd be screwed.
yeah, the lower midwest is a fucked up animal. both kc and st. louis are in the same boat wherein there's an island of progressive minded people surrounded by rednecks and hoosiers...
Isn't that in itself a pretty damn generalist "us vs them" statement?

Also...
chingon wrote: And the whole lesson of Ferguson, to my mind, is that the kind of behavior and attitudes evidenced in that video are ubiquitous in white culture...
Wouldn't "hooligan culture" be a more apt term?
If you look internationally such behavior transcends cultural and national lines, with merely a shuffling of the deck as to the bigoted rhetoric involved.

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by warwickland » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:29 pm

global-city coastal american far leftists just invaded st. louis by the bus, train, and carload and took control of the protests, apparently quite professionally with vested handlers. it seems to have possibly turned the corner towards positive energy. i will say that i derived a certain amount of pleasure in seeing the clayton financial district board up.

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by aknowledgeableperson » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:09 am

Not sure how it will all end but here is some of the latest. From the NY Times on the MSN website:
The police officer who fatally shot Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., two months ago has told investigators that he was pinned in his vehicle and in fear for his life as he struggled over his gun with Mr. Brown, according to government officials briefed on the federal civil rights investigation into the matter.

The officer, Darren Wilson, has told the authorities that during the scuffle, Mr. Brown reached for the gun. It was fired twice in the car, according to forensics tests performed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The first bullet struck Mr. Brown in the arm; the second bullet missed.

The forensics tests showed Mr. Brown’s blood on the gun, as well as on the interior door panel and on Officer Wilson’s uniform. Officer Wilson told the authorities that Mr. Brown had punched and scratched him repeatedly, leaving swelling on his face and cuts on his neck.
...
The officials said that while the federal investigation was continuing, the evidence so far did not support civil rights charges against Officer Wilson. To press charges, the Justice Department would need to clear a high bar, proving that Officer Wilson willfully violated Mr. Brown’s civil rights when he shot him.
...
Federal investigators said the forensic evidence gathered in the car lent credence to Officer Wilson’s version of events. According to his account, he was trying to leave his vehicle when Mr. Brown pushed him back in. Once inside the S.U.V., the two began to fight, Officer Wilson told investigators, and he removed his gun from the holster on his right hip.

Chief Jon Belmar of the St. Louis County Police Department has said in interviews that Officer Wilson was “pushed back into the car” by Mr. Brown and “physically assaulted.” The department is conducting the local investigation into Mr. Brown’s death.

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by im2kull » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:21 pm

Say it ain't so..

Gee..didn't see that one coming. You know, since the officer with the broken cheek bones has been claiming he was punched in the face since day ONE.

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by phuqueue » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:15 am

You didn't see what coming? That whole article is just "Wilson said _____" except for the line attributed to unnamed "federal investigators" who say that the forensic evidence "lends credence" to Wilson's story -- but they don't explain at all in what way. There is no dispute that some sort of altercation occurred at the car. So now we have forensic evidence that an altercation occurred at the car. Great, we already knew that. Nothing in the article (which akp unhelpfully declined to provide, but here it is: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/18/us/fe ... uggle.html) explains how the forensic evidence particularly supports Wilson's version of the altercation vs. other witnesses'.

This part, which akp didn't bother to include, is particularly important:
This is the first public account of Officer Wilson’s testimony to investigators, but it does not explain why, after he emerged from his vehicle, he fired at Mr. Brown multiple times. It contradicts some witness accounts, and it will not calm those who have been demanding to know why an unarmed man was shot a total of six times.
Even supposing that Wilson's version of the car fight is 100% accurate, it doesn't justify gunning down a fleeing, unarmed person. If Michael Brown attacked Wilson, he should have been arrested and charged. Getting punched doesn't justify use of deadly force.

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by mean » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:22 am

It's interesting to me the contrast that emerges when people who don't like the government, don't particularly care for authority, and in many cases don't care for and deeply mistrust law enforcement, are firmly on the side of a cop who gunned down an unarmed teenager.

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by loftguy » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:34 am

mean wrote:It's interesting to me the contrast that emerges when people who don't like the government, don't particularly care for authority, and in many cases don't care for and deeply mistrust law enforcement, are firmly on the side of a cop who gunned down an unarmed teenager.

The broadly exhibited ability to suspend both critical analysis of events and reasoned self assessment is extraordinary and terrifying.

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