Politics

Come here to talk about topics that are not related to development, or even Kansas City.
flyingember
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Re: Politics

Post by flyingember »

DColeKC wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:50 pm
flyingember wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:59 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:24 pm

I'm not making excuses for anyone. Why can't you be honest? I'm talking about what led up yesterday and yes, Trumps rhetoric 100% was much of it, if not most of it, but that doesn't mean the people who have name called and trashed Trump supporters didn't have a part in firing up his base. I've been saying this for years now. It's not smart calling half the population names and insulting their intelligence over a vote cast. The divisiveness wasn't solely due to Trump and his supporters.
You just used whataboutism in this paragraph.
"Trump was at fault, but what about the people name calling?"

That method is a propaganda method used to make excuses. You literally just made excuses after saying you're not making excuses.

Trump went out to a group of people and told them to march on the capital. No one name calling him made him do that or anyone do what he said.
That's such a bullshit response. I'm not attempting to lessen the blame for what happened, which is what making excuses is. I'm talking about the fact that yesterday's speech by Trump wasn't the only thing that caused the situation to happen. This was a long time coming and one of many components that fueled the fire and divisiveness involves the way the anti-trump crowd has acted and spoken as well.

There is no excuse to storm the capital or to become violent. This is a bigger picture argument I'm making. Much like the death of George Flyod alone wasn't the reason our country saw historic protests this summer but years and years of racial injustice fueled that fire. Until some of you get off the idea that I'm "always defending Trump", you'll never look at my posts with a clear view.
You were literally were lessening the blame and you changed your stance since then.

You said Trump was to blame, but don't forget about these people too, they have part of the blame. That's what you do to try and lessening the blame.

You're doing the equivalent of
Teacher to Child: You hit Friend and took their toy, that is not ok
Child: But they stuck their tongue out, they're partially to blame

There's ethical arguments on if bad actions are ethical because they intend to have a good result, or if their actions need to be ethical for the results to be ethical, but that's an entirely different argument than you're making

You're saying someone's moral stance should depend on the morality of others. That they can treat others badly if they perceive they were treated badly first. You know the opposite of the old saying, slap them back if they slap your cheek

And then to be entirely wrong about the sequence of events that led to your point.

I don't think you're doing much more than giving a pro-Trump knee jerk reaction.

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chaglang
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Re: Politics

Post by chaglang »

DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:28 pm
FangKC wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:14 pm
The Kansas City Star is reporting that Senator Hawley sent out a fundraising appeal as Capitol descended into chaos.

https://twitter.com/KCStar/status/13469 ... 31840?s=20

https://twitter.com/ssnich/status/13469 ... 73/photo/1
The Star sure hates Hawley and well... anyone with (R) behind their name.
Hate is such a lazy, bullshit (and after yesterday, dangerous) word to use here. Disagreeing with someone isn't remotely equivalent to hating them. For example, I don't hate you. I just disagree with you.

phuqueue
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Re: Politics

Post by phuqueue »

So if I'm understanding correctly, the argument is that people who fly flags like this:
Image
broke into the Capitol yesterday because Democrats have been too mean to them? Is that right?

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DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:13 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:50 pm
flyingember wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:59 pm


You just used whataboutism in this paragraph.
"Trump was at fault, but what about the people name calling?"

That method is a propaganda method used to make excuses. You literally just made excuses after saying you're not making excuses.

Trump went out to a group of people and told them to march on the capital. No one name calling him made him do that or anyone do what he said.
That's such a bullshit response. I'm not attempting to lessen the blame for what happened, which is what making excuses is. I'm talking about the fact that yesterday's speech by Trump wasn't the only thing that caused the situation to happen. This was a long time coming and one of many components that fueled the fire and divisiveness involves the way the anti-trump crowd has acted and spoken as well.

There is no excuse to storm the capital or to become violent. This is a bigger picture argument I'm making. Much like the death of George Flyod alone wasn't the reason our country saw historic protests this summer but years and years of racial injustice fueled that fire. Until some of you get off the idea that I'm "always defending Trump", you'll never look at my posts with a clear view.
You were literally were lessening the blame and you changed your stance since then.

You said Trump was to blame, but don't forget about these people too, they have part of the blame. That's what you do to try and lessening the blame.

You're doing the equivalent of
Teacher to Child: You hit Friend and took their toy, that is not ok
Child: But they stuck their tongue out, they're partially to blame

There's ethical arguments on if bad actions are ethical because they intend to have a good result, or if their actions need to be ethical for the results to be ethical, but that's an entirely different argument than you're making

You're saying someone's moral stance should depend on the morality of others. That they can treat others badly if they perceive they were treated badly first. You know the opposite of the old saying, slap them back if they slap your cheek

And then to be entirely wrong about the sequence of events that led to your point.

I don't think you're doing much more than giving a pro-Trump knee jerk reaction.
How many times do I have to tell you I'm not making excuses. To say that the left has played a role leading up to yesterdays event doesn't aim to lessen the part Trump has played in it. I'm making these statements because people like you want to argue about pro-trump this and use child metaphors (literally) instead of admitting it's a much more complex problem than simply, TRUMP BAD MAN.

I'm not arguing that because people on the left have been rude and called Trump voters stupid, that it justifies Trump supporters being violent. Not at all.

Once again, there are no excuses to break the law or become violent. Not sure how clearly I can state this. If we want to truly be united, people like you need to realize the complexity of the issue and understand that when I offer up my opinion about something, it's not intended to be in defense of Trump, Pro-Trump or anything like that. To simplify it for you, I'm talking about cause and effect here.

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chaglang
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Re: Politics

Post by chaglang »

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:42 am
grovester wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:38 am
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:53 am
So what are we all thinking? Term limits for congressional members yet or what?
What part of what happened yesterday made you ask this question?
Nothing about yesterday, more so to do with both houses of Congress and their inability to pass a coherent stimulus bill, because both sides feel the need to constantly slip in BS that doesn’t pertain to the bill in the least.
If Jefferson City is any indication, term limits would have the opposite effect. It would guarantee a continual crop of inexperienced people who were sufficiently doctrinaire to navigate the primary system and who have no working relationship with other members of congress. That, I would imagine, would serve to increase gridlock.

It's strange that we see experience as a fault when it comes to running the government.

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DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

phuqueue wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:30 pm
So if I'm understanding correctly, the argument is that people who fly flags like this:
Image
broke into the Capitol yesterday because Democrats have been too mean to them? Is that right?
Massive over simplification of my comment. There's no denying Trump has stirred the pot for all this time and his rhetoric has lead to this. My comment about the name calling was in reference to someone.... SURPRISE! Name Calling!

I don't think those on the right should call liberals "snowflakes" just as I don't think those on the left should call Trump voters "deplorable". If you all can't understand how that contributes to the divisiveness and feeds the beast, I don't understand.

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DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

chaglang wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:26 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:28 pm
FangKC wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:14 pm
The Kansas City Star is reporting that Senator Hawley sent out a fundraising appeal as Capitol descended into chaos.

https://twitter.com/KCStar/status/13469 ... 31840?s=20

https://twitter.com/ssnich/status/13469 ... 73/photo/1
The Star sure hates Hawley and well... anyone with (R) behind their name.
Hate is such a lazy, bullshit (and after yesterday, dangerous) word to use here. Disagreeing with someone isn't remotely equivalent to hating them. For example, I don't hate you. I just disagree with you.
Understood. Should have said I feel its common knowledge that the Star leans left.

flyingember
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Re: Politics

Post by flyingember »

DColeKC wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:38 pm
chaglang wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:26 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:28 pm


The Star sure hates Hawley and well... anyone with (R) behind their name.
Hate is such a lazy, bullshit (and after yesterday, dangerous) word to use here. Disagreeing with someone isn't remotely equivalent to hating them. For example, I don't hate you. I just disagree with you.
Understood. Should have said I feel its common knowledge that the Star leans left.
they're owned by a hedge fund who is run by a junk bond trader who hired Trump's former lawyer.

But yes, keep thinking the paper still leans left.

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DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:59 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:38 pm
chaglang wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:26 pm

Hate is such a lazy, bullshit (and after yesterday, dangerous) word to use here. Disagreeing with someone isn't remotely equivalent to hating them. For example, I don't hate you. I just disagree with you.
Understood. Should have said I feel its common knowledge that the Star leans left.
they're owned by a hedge fund who is run by a junk bond trader who hired Trump's former lawyer.

But yes, keep thinking the paper still leans left.
I could say Patrick Mahomes isn't our starting QB and you'd argue with me about it. The star leans left, once again, unless you're blinded by your own biases, isn't a secret.

Image

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DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

I mean really... because some guy hired Trumps former lawyer he and his business's are conservative? WTF.

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chaglang
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Re: Politics

Post by chaglang »

What's the source on that chart?

phuqueue
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Re: Politics

Post by phuqueue »

DColeKC wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:36 pm
Massive over simplification of my comment. There's no denying Trump has stirred the pot for all this time and his rhetoric has lead to this. My comment about the name calling was in reference to someone.... SURPRISE! Name Calling!

I don't think those on the right should call liberals "snowflakes" just as I don't think those on the left should call Trump voters "deplorable". If you all can't understand how that contributes to the divisiveness and feeds the beast, I don't understand.
It's one thing to "contribute to divisiveness" and something else to induce a riot. It seems weird to try to both sides this, but I dunno, maybe I missed where people got so fed up with being called snowflakes that they broke into the Capitol with zipties and guns and explosives.

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DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

chaglang wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:22 pm
What's the source on that chart?
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/kansas-city-star/

flyingember
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Re: Politics

Post by flyingember »

You can't use just one site for your example and expect it to be proof of anything

This site marks them as neutral.
https://www.adfontesmedia.com/kansas-ci ... liability/

Their ratings have a -42 to +42 range and they give them a -5. If you split 84 into five boxes for score ranges then neutral is -8 to +8

flyingember
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Re: Politics

Post by flyingember »

phuqueue wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:24 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:36 pm
Massive over simplification of my comment. There's no denying Trump has stirred the pot for all this time and his rhetoric has lead to this. My comment about the name calling was in reference to someone.... SURPRISE! Name Calling!

I don't think those on the right should call liberals "snowflakes" just as I don't think those on the left should call Trump voters "deplorable". If you all can't understand how that contributes to the divisiveness and feeds the beast, I don't understand.
It's one thing to "contribute to divisiveness" and something else to induce a riot. It seems weird to try to both sides this, but I dunno, maybe I missed where people got so fed up with being called snowflakes that they broke into the Capitol with zipties and guns and explosives.
This. Personal responsibility says to own up to a belief to want violence for political purposes. There's a long history of this, including in our country.

Remotely blaming being called names for violence is a sign someone is being dishonest about causes

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DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

phuqueue wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:24 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:36 pm
Massive over simplification of my comment. There's no denying Trump has stirred the pot for all this time and his rhetoric has lead to this. My comment about the name calling was in reference to someone.... SURPRISE! Name Calling!

I don't think those on the right should call liberals "snowflakes" just as I don't think those on the left should call Trump voters "deplorable". If you all can't understand how that contributes to the divisiveness and feeds the beast, I don't understand.
It's one thing to "contribute to divisiveness" and something else to induce a riot. It seems weird to try to both sides this, but I dunno, maybe I missed where people got so fed up with being called snowflakes that they broke into the Capitol with zipties and guns and explosives.
Once again, I'm not justifying or minimizing Trumps words, specifically his speech yesterday. Just stating my opinion that name calling based off political differences contributes to the hate and fuels the divide. I didn't randomly bring up the lefts side in this out of nowhere, I did when someone came in calling Trump supporters names.

Btw, where did you read they had guns, zip ties or explosives in the capital? I've only read about the pipe bombs and it sounds like those were dummy bombs.

flyingember
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Re: Politics

Post by flyingember »

Back to media bias, this one claims left center
https://www.technocracyinc.org/wp-conte ... s-List.pdf

this one claims 3.5 on a scale of 1-5, making it somewhat left of center
https://www.nber.org/system/files/worki ... w12707.pdf

So there isn't even agreement on how left of center the paper is when it's left of center.

flyingember
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Re: Politics

Post by flyingember »

DColeKC wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:32 pm
phuqueue wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:24 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:36 pm
Massive over simplification of my comment. There's no denying Trump has stirred the pot for all this time and his rhetoric has lead to this. My comment about the name calling was in reference to someone.... SURPRISE! Name Calling!

I don't think those on the right should call liberals "snowflakes" just as I don't think those on the left should call Trump voters "deplorable". If you all can't understand how that contributes to the divisiveness and feeds the beast, I don't understand.
It's one thing to "contribute to divisiveness" and something else to induce a riot. It seems weird to try to both sides this, but I dunno, maybe I missed where people got so fed up with being called snowflakes that they broke into the Capitol with zipties and guns and explosives.
Once again, I'm not justifying or minimizing Trumps words, specifically his speech yesterday. Just stating my opinion that name calling based off political differences contributes to the hate and fuels the divide. I didn't randomly bring up the lefts side in this out of nowhere, I did when someone came in calling Trump supporters names.

Btw, where did you read they had guns, zip ties or explosives in the capital? I've only read about the pipe bombs and it sounds like those were dummy bombs.
Yes, they're using the Trump playbook. To be insulted when someone takes on your political tactics is an excuse, not a reason.


Yes, there were guns in the mob

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/01/06 ... c-protests
Police seized five guns and arrested at least 13 people during the violent protests involving supporters of President Trump at the Capitol on Wednesday, Chief Robert J. Contee of the D.C. Metropolitan Police Department said on Wednesday.
You really should do research, it took 15 seconds to prove you really didn't bother

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DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:28 pm
You can't use just one site for your example and expect it to be proof of anything

This site marks them as neutral.
https://www.adfontesmedia.com/kansas-ci ... liability/

Their ratings have a -42 to +42 range and they give them a -5. If you split 84 into five boxes for score ranges then neutral is -8 to +8
You just want to be right? Like I said, you'd argue any point with me. So one reliable media bias site finds them left leaning and another finds them neutral. Even though according to their own bias scoring system, 11 out of 16 individual article scored lean left. The most liberal article got a left leaning score of -12.67 and the furthest right leaning article 1.67. Job well done, your "one site" verified the paper leans left.

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DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:35 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:32 pm
phuqueue wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:24 pm

It's one thing to "contribute to divisiveness" and something else to induce a riot. It seems weird to try to both sides this, but I dunno, maybe I missed where people got so fed up with being called snowflakes that they broke into the Capitol with zipties and guns and explosives.
Once again, I'm not justifying or minimizing Trumps words, specifically his speech yesterday. Just stating my opinion that name calling based off political differences contributes to the hate and fuels the divide. I didn't randomly bring up the lefts side in this out of nowhere, I did when someone came in calling Trump supporters names.

Btw, where did you read they had guns, zip ties or explosives in the capital? I've only read about the pipe bombs and it sounds like those were dummy bombs.
Yes, they're using the Trump playbook. To be insulted when someone takes on your political tactics is an excuse, not a reason.


Yes, there were guns in the mob

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/01/06 ... c-protests
Police seized five guns and arrested at least 13 people during the violent protests involving supporters of President Trump at the Capitol on Wednesday, Chief Robert J. Contee of the D.C. Metropolitan Police Department said on Wednesday.
You really should do research, it took 15 seconds to prove you really didn't bother
You're exhausting. I did do a google search before I politely asked where he read the information. I didn't find anything that said the people who stormed the capital had guns. Seizing 5 guns from a crowd of 50,000 on federal property is illegal, breaking into the capital with a gun is serious level up.

I've lost all hope in your comprehension skills. Perhaps if you got it out of your head that I'm some kind of MAGA loving Trump apologist you'd see things differently.

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