Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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chrizow
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

Post by chrizow »

bobbyhawks wrote: Decisions shouldn't be made solely on taxes.  That is a cop-out.  Taxes should factor in,
the same reasoning applies to the anti-KCMO folks who use the e-tax to explain everything.  sure, it's one factor and i don't blame folks for considering it when deciding where to locate a business, or move their family, but to use it as THE deciding factor is just ridiculous and disingenuous.
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

Post by KC0KEK »

chrizow wrote: i think the "taxes reward laziness" argument you made is completely false, and now it appears you are backing away from it.  
Where did I make that argument?
chrizow wrote: is it that we've officially turned a corner where americans are 100% individualistic and do not have a "we're all in it together" sort of mentality?  
But we're not all in it together when nearly half of taxpayers pay no federal income taxes. (Didn't we have a thread about this topic several months ago?) I'm fine with paying taxes. I'm arguing that for some people, taxes reach a point where they don't feel they're getting enough value for the time and effort necessary to pay them. In the case of property and income taxes, one solution is to move to a place with lower rates. In the case of just income taxes, the only legal solution I know of is to work less. In both cases, they are still paying some taxes.
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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KC0KEK wrote: But we're not all in it together when nearly half of taxpayers pay no federal income taxes.
i agree that the tax loopholes that enable wealthy people with huge portfolios to pay no income tax should be closed.  this would be fair.

i really hope that you do no truly believe that poor people and the elderly need to pay more taxes.  for a family making $25,000 per year, an extra 1% or 2% in taxes could be truly devastating.  these families already have enough trouble making ends meet and putting food on the table, so an extra $100 or $200 per month would cause an unnecessary amount of pain for a relatively paltry amount of gain.

by contrast, for a family making $300,000 per year to pay an extra $3,000 per year would cause a relatively minor amount of pain.  for such families, it is literally the difference between very enviable lifestyle choices and not a matter of whether their kids are fed or they can provide medical care for their family.
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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this is a very simplified anecdote, but i thought it was fairly enlightening.  

on a recent episode of rick steves' europe (a pretty educational travel show on public television where rick, the author of the famous travel guides, showcases a particular city or region in europe), he went to oslo.  he met up with a cousin there and they went boating around one of norway's many fjords.  

in a rare example of rick discussing the political stance of the subject country, he brought up the famously high tax rate (on income and otherwise) in scandanavian countries like norway and explained that it is a function of the culture to believe in a strong but well-managed government.  he also mentioned the very strong support and reverence for farmers and the working class (which of course was true in america until relatively recently).  in exchange for their high taxes, norwegians receive world class cultural institutions, transit systems, medical care, education, etc.  .

he asked his cousin to discuss why norwegians were seemingly okay with paying such high income tax rates - in this case, the woman said she pays approximately 50% in income taxes.  her response was the following:

"yes, we pay a lot in taxes, but we expect much from our govt - and we receive a lot.  we have free education through the university level, free excellent healthcare, and very healthy retirement benefits.  so while we pay a lot from our paychecks, we are almost entirely free of the anxieties revolving around medical expenses, whether we can retire, whether we can pay for our childrens' college educations."  etc.

for a huge portion of this country, concerns about paying for health care, education, retirement, etc. cause tremendous anxiety and stress.  so why aren't people clamoring for a similar tax rate - and, of course, a similarly high expectation (and performance) from govt?  i for one would gladly pay a 50% tax rate to have free education through the graduate school level, free medical care, retirement benefits, etc.  obviously the welathy would have a problem with this, b/c they can afford all those things with the current tax rate, but the lion's share of americans would vastly benefit from this - with the added benefit that even with the higher tax rate they would be much more free to pursue interests, spend time with family, etc.  why aren't people demanding this?  if it's just that people think "govt is evil," that is just retarded.

obviously it's a bit more complex than this, but i thought that the norwegian woman's rather casual insight revealed a very profound truth.
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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I believe it is mainly because a lot of working- and middle-class Americans actually believe the lie that they, too, will be rich someday, if only they work hard enough. That's the only way I can explain subsistence farmers being mad at the idea of tax increases on the wealthy.
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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chrizow wrote: for a huge portion of this country, concerns about paying for health care, education, retirement, etc. cause tremendous anxiety and stress.  so why aren't people clamoring for a similar tax rate - and, of course, a similarly high expectation (and performance) from govt?
You answered your own question: Most people aren't clamoring for a higher tax rate on themselves because they have low expectations about the government's ability to spend their money efficiently and effectively. For example, when people hear, "If we don't raise the debt ceiling, Social Security checks might not go out," some might wonder, "Maybe I'd be better off keeping that portion of my taxes because then at least I have some level of control over it."
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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mean wrote: I believe it is mainly because a lot of working- and middle-class Americans actually believe the lie that they, too, will be rich someday, if only they work hard enough. That's the only way I can explain subsistence farmers being mad at the idea of tax increases on the wealthy.
but wait a sec, those wealthy folks are "job creators!"  they provide the slovenly masses with good jobs!  

ah, just kidding, they just exploit tax loopholes and deregulation to ship our middle class jobs overseas, bust unions, etc., make huge bonuses for doing so, and use their power and influence in washington to only magnify the pain inflicted on working people in this country.  it's the american dream!  bootstraps, etc.
KC0KEK wrote: You answered your own question: Most people aren't clamoring for a higher tax rate on themselves because they have low expectations about the government's ability to spend their money efficiently and effectively. For example, when people hear, "If we don't raise the debt ceiling, Social Security checks might not go out," some might wonder, "Maybe I'd be better off keeping that portion of my taxes because then at least I have some level of control over it."
or they might say to themselves:  "our govt is so in the pocket of the wealthy that their politicians are willing to play russian roulette with the global economy in order to protect their recklessly low tax rates and fight to keep grandma and grandpa from receiving a check so they can purchase their TV dinners and pay for their prescriptions."  
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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Liberals are great at spending other people's money. Or telling people that they need to give more. Why do they give so little to charity as a whole compared to Republicans?
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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NDTeve wrote: Liberals are great at spending other people's money. Or telling people that they need to give more. Why do they give so little to charity as a whole compared to Republicans?
probably because republicans are, on the whole, wealthier.  and when you factor out giving to churches, the numbers are pretty evenly split depending on what data you look at.
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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NDTeve wrote: Why do they give so little to charity as a whole compared to Republicans?
Well, the traditional Democrat states do essentially subsidize the economies of red-state America. I mean, with a few exceptions, they contribute more to the federal coffers than they receive, and most traditionally Republican states actually receive more in federal subsidies and aid than they pay into the system, so...one way to look at it might be that Republicans actually exist on the charity of liberals. To say nothing of the correlation of class and political affiliation and the myriad of ways that our economic pyramid funnels wealth from the many to the few, a system I would call quite "charitable", indeed.

But I don't expect you'd agree. Maybe instead you would be better served by checking out a pie chart of US discretionary spending and then think hard (seriously, try it) about whose money is being spent by (and for) whom.
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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chrizow wrote: but wait a sec, those wealthy folks are "job creators!"  they provide the slovenly masses with good jobs!  
I thought the government wields that power. For example, Pelosi said that health care reform "is about jobs. In its life, it will create 4 million jobs, 400,000 jobs almost immediately." Those kinds of immediate and long-term results are certain to make more people argue for higher taxes on themselves.
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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KC0KEK wrote: I thought the government wields that power. For example, Pelosi said that health care reform "is about jobs. In its life, it will create 4 million jobs, 400,000 jobs almost immediately." Those kinds of immediate and long-term results are certain to make more people argue for higher taxes on themselves.
there is no doubt that govt spending is tied to jobs.  what you never heard from the 'Pubs in this debt ceiling crap was the fact that "cutting spending" = "slashing jobs."  of course this increases expenditures on unemployment benefits, adds to the jobless rolls, depresses the economy further, etc.   fat cats and tea partiers would have us believe that the govt "stands in the way" of business or job creation, but the fact is that the govt is not only a huge consumer of private business products and services but a huge employer as well, and its employees are just as addicted to buying products and services that operate our economy as well.  many, many private firms could not and would not exist without the govt.  i am sure wal-mart and Big Food would love for food stamps to be abolished and lose that guaranteed revenue stream.  

the surest way to get america working again, as i said in another thread, is a huge-scale public works project.  the govt could put folks to work building bridges, HSR, fixing our ailnig infrastructure, etc., but that would just be too "socialist."  it's better to just give money directly to wall st and cut taxes on the rich so they can "create jobs."  (cricket cricket).  
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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chrizow wrote:
the surest way to get america working again, as i said in another thread, is a huge-scale public works project.   
We should invade America.

We know for a plain fact that they have WMD's, "nucular" capabilites, violent fundamentalist factions in control of the government and lots of natural resources.

If we just invaded ourselves, blew up all our shit, toppled the tyranical teabagging minority and replaced them with a democratically elected government instead of a thinly veiled corporatocracy, then started rebuilding stuff, all our problems would be solved.
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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chrizow wrote: there is no doubt that govt spending is tied to jobs.
So where are the jobs?
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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chingon wrote: We should invade America.

We know for a plain fact that they have WMD's, "nucular" capabilites, violent fundamentalist factions in control of the government and lots of natural resources.

If we just invaded ourselves, blew up all our shit, toppled the tyranical teabagging minority and replaced them with a democratically elected government instead of a thinly veiled corporatocracy, then started rebuilding stuff, all our problems would be solved.
^ i actually entirely support this plan.  it wasn't that long ago in this country that bending over backwards to appease corporate fat cats would have been political suicide.  hell, it wasn't all that long ago that actual socialists - like from the socialist party - held mainstream local, state, and national political office.  i am not well-versed enough in history and economics to pinpoint precisely when our government stopped aiding the working person and instead funneled its considerable resources into the pockets of CEOs, but i am pretty sure it has mostly happened in my lifetime.  it is truly remarkable and amazing that the republican party has been able to wage such an amazing PR campaign over the years to get the very same working and middle class people who got royally screwed by corporate america to vote those same people and their enablers into office time and time again.  somewhere along the line it became "unamerican" to protest the obliteration of the middle class and systematic fucking of the working class, and it's sickening to me.  this country was born from violent revolution by mostly peasants for chrissakes, and now it seems that we do all we can to inflict misery on the lower 75% of the economic strata...i am getting worked up...
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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chingon wrote: We should invade America.

We know for a plain fact that they have WMD's, "nucular" capabilites, violent fundamentalist factions in control of the government and lots of natural resources.

If we just invaded ourselves, blew up all our shit, toppled the tyranical teabagging minority and replaced them with a democratically elected government instead of a thinly veiled corporatocracy, then started rebuilding stuff, all our problems would be solved.
This post likely set off several NSA monitors.

I'm in.
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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We give rich people continuation of tax breaks, and they sit on a pile of money and wait for the right time to spend it.  That is how it works in reality.  Giving a rich person a little bit more money does not change their behavior.  ROE and certainty do.  Right now, there is little incentive for people with money, be they banks in the loan business or just rich people looking to invest, to actually spend it on anything that improves our economy.  Tax breaks will not encourage them to invest in bad or sketchy deals while they watch the DOW jump up and down.

What a government backed works project does is provide a known commodity of workload, with a large scale project, where businesses know they will make money.  That is by far the most certainty a government can provide in uncertain times.  Cutting taxes will only provide the certainty that you can maybe buy an extra TV, not that you will have a job in a month.

The worst part of it all is, I see anti-Obama folks taking a sick pleasure in the stagnant nature of the economy.  While tea partiers passed on this notion of cutting government spending (and I think that looking at spending, efficiency, and taxes are all necessary), it is a win-win for them to see equivalent jobs cut because they can pass those numbers on to the President.  Just another way they got everything they wanted and more from the recent Satan sandwich.  I'm not as down on the President as many, though,  because I think that his willingness to "compromise" could help in the long run... but it completely depends on who he is up against.
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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KC0KEK wrote: So where are the jobs?
Federal employees are everywhere.  How many jobs did you really expect from a bank bailout?
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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chrizow wrote: i am not well-versed enough in history and economics to pinpoint precisely when our government stopped aiding the working person
I wasn't aware that it stopped. EITC, Pell grants, Making Work Pay, TANF, Medicaid, Child Care Credit, American Opportunity Credit and Lifetime Learning Credit are examples of benefits available to working persons. A family of four can make $63,000 and still qualify for SCHIP.
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Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?

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chrizow wrote: ^ i actually entirely support this plan.  it wasn't that long ago in this country that bending over backwards to appease corporate fat cats would have been political suicide.  hell, it wasn't all that long ago that actual socialists - like from the socialist party - held mainstream local, state, and national political office.  i am not well-versed enough in history and economics to pinpoint precisely when our government stopped aiding the working person and instead funneled its considerable resources into the pockets of CEOs, but i am pretty sure it has mostly happened in my lifetime.  it is truly remarkable and amazing that the republican party has been able to wage such an amazing PR campaign over the years to get the very same working and middle class people who got royally screwed by corporate america to vote those same people and their enablers into office time and time again.  somewhere along the line it became "unamerican" to protest the obliteration of the middle class and systematic fucking of the working class, and it's sickening to me.  this country was born from violent revolution by mostly peasants for chrissakes, and now it seems that we do all we can to inflict misery on the lower 75% of the economic strata...i am getting worked up...

I would actually argue something quite different, which is that there has never been any widespread support in the political class for the American working class (or the purely rhetorical "middle class" as its now so quaintly called), but rather that the advances that working people have made in this country have ALL -- as in 100% -- come from pressure-tactics employed by the organized portion of the working class. Corporatist politics is merely the latest evoltion of a system of oligarchy that is more or less a natural consequence of unchecked hierarchical governance.

In most western and northern European countries (until the modern era at least) the working class has traditionally been represented by a labor party that engaged in coalition-style governing with centrist and other leftist parties. In America, that route was foregone in hopes that an unbalanced alliance with the Democratic party would allow labor to advance its goals within the framework of the 2-party state.

That alliance has had pretty limitted success, but the biggest gains for working people, the fairest wealth distribution across the sprectrum, and -- pay attention right-wing regurgitators -- the most prosperous times for the nation as a whole, all correlate with the aftermath of vocal and disruptive periods of labor agitation. Periods that themselves normally followed cycles of wealth concentration and disrepect for working people of the sort we are currently mired in.

Go back to school and get a degree in labor law. We will need you soon.
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