Alternative Energy

Come here to talk about topics that are not related to development, or even Kansas City.
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FlippantCitizen
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by FlippantCitizen »

ToDactivist wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 6:27 pm
FangKC wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:53 pm The best incentive for adding solar would be for the federal and state governments to give tax credits to individual homeowners and businesses that add solar to their properties. This creates additional demand for the solar panel industry, and encourage further battery storage research and development. Then the market would take care of the rest. Many homeowners need that additional tax credit to justify the expense of installing solar.

Our country also needs to do this to incentivize people to purchase electric vehicles that can be at least partially charged from their own on-site solar.

State governments also need to change laws and regulations to allow property owners to do this without penalty. States should mandate utility companies to buy back extra solar capacity from private parties, and reduce their reliance on fossil fuels. Many states are doing the opposite and allowing utilities to charge solar users additional fees.
how would you propose taxing EV's for road use since today that is primarily the use of the gas tax? subsidies often have unintended consequences.
Given inflation and the fact the gas tax hasn't changed since the 90s combined with fuel effiecency gains of vehicles since then, we are already failing badly on that question. We definitely need better funding mechanisms for road maintenance going forward.
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by flyingember »

FlippantCitizen wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:01 pm Given inflation and the fact the gas tax hasn't changed since the 90s combined with fuel effiecency gains of vehicles since then, we are already failing badly on that question. We definitely need better funding mechanisms for road maintenance going forward.
A higher registration flat tax
A variable mileage tax paid with registration
An outside the home fueling/charging tax regardless of fuel type. gallons for gas + diesel + hydrogen, kilowatts for vehicles

The charging tax could cover expanded vehicles like e-bikes that could be recharged at a station too. Since they'll charge so little compared to a car it's the same scale of paying relative to your fuel requirements. On the other end, an electric truck with huge batteries would be like fueling a giant diesel tank.
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FlippantCitizen
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by FlippantCitizen »

flyingember wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:11 pm
A higher registration flat tax
A variable mileage tax paid with registration
An outside the home fueling/charging tax regardless of fuel type. gallons for gas + diesel + hydrogen, kilowatts for vehicles

The charging tax could cover expanded vehicles like e-bikes that could be recharged at a station too. Since they'll charge so little compared to a car it's the same scale of paying relative to your fuel requirements. On the other end, an electric truck with huge batteries would be like fueling a giant diesel tank.
How would a variable mileage tax work? Would an EZ pass like device be required in every car? Compliance seems like it would be a big big issue. Perhaps privacy and data issues as well? Definitely agree we need to tie the price of driving to actual miles driven but the structure should probably be set up to make the burden less on EVs just so we keep good incentives for people to transition into these (for now) more expensive vehicles. Also there's a can of worms involved when the people who can least afford more efficient vehicles get taxed more for not having them. re: France's yellow vest movement. No simple answers.
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by shinatoo »

Toll roads and state-wide sales tax. Not my favorite but not sure how you do anything else without making it super complicated.

Of course, my first choice would be a land tax, but that is gaining zero traction.
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by flyingember »

FlippantCitizen wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:41 pm
flyingember wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:11 pm
A higher registration flat tax
A variable mileage tax paid with registration
An outside the home fueling/charging tax regardless of fuel type. gallons for gas + diesel + hydrogen, kilowatts for vehicles

The charging tax could cover expanded vehicles like e-bikes that could be recharged at a station too. Since they'll charge so little compared to a car it's the same scale of paying relative to your fuel requirements. On the other end, an electric truck with huge batteries would be like fueling a giant diesel tank.
Compliance seems like it would be a big big issue.
How to easily track mileage is actually quite easy, you do it on the honor system.

If it's a dealer trade in they record your old car mileage and it's in the paperwork to get a new title. They look up the old car registration and you pay your final bill during the title transfer based on the two numbers.

If it's a private sale, both parties record the mileage on their paperwork. You have to send in your paperwork to the state already for a private sale so switch this to online or in person with your new title where you pay your remaining bill there. If there's a discrepancy or you forget to pay it's caught based on who does and doesn't report what numbers.

If you lie on the mileage, that it's higher when you buy third party and the other person puts the real number, you pay more in fines. They won't want to pay more by saying it's higher than it is.
If you sell and try to say it's lower you pay more because the buyer will want to use the real number.

If it's never registered and the seller never pays, and it's pulled over you both pay a fine (bigger for the buyer), so if you sell you're encouraged to pay the tax asap.

Look forward five years. If you've been lieing for years your mileage gap will be very big and you'll pay the full amount in the end.

About the only place the state loses money is an out of state sale. So there has to be a process to record when a vehicle leaves the state and if you're not submitting this you pay a penalty when you go to register a new vehicle in state.

If the person moves out of state too, let it be. Why would they come back and pay a tax to a state they moved out of?

Without active enforcement some loss from the dishonest won't matter for the overall gain.
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FangKC
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by FangKC »

ToDactivist wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 6:27 pm
FangKC wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:53 pm ...
State governments also need to change laws and regulations to allow property owners to do this without penalty. States should mandate utility companies to buy back extra solar capacity from private parties, and reduce their reliance on fossil fuels. Many states are doing the opposite and allowing utilities to charge solar users additional fees.
how would you propose taxing EV's for road use since today that is primarily the use of the gas tax? subsidies often have unintended consequences.
I think we'll have to tax based on vehicle's mileage and not what the fuel source is. When you renew your license, the mileage traveled will be recorded and you will taxes based on that.

The only problem with that is that low-income vehicle owners pay with each tank, and they are essentially paying-as-they-go. Paying when they renew license tags means they are paying all at once, and may not have that chunk of money available. That might create a burden for them.

There could be a utility tax placed on your vehicle charger, that is separate from your house usage. Instead of paying per gallon for gas, you would pay a fee per KW hour on your car charger.

However, I think it will probably be the mileage tax on vehicle tags is the most likely method.
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by flyingember »

FangKC wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:01 pm
ToDactivist wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 6:27 pm
FangKC wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:53 pm ...
State governments also need to change laws and regulations to allow property owners to do this without penalty. States should mandate utility companies to buy back extra solar capacity from private parties, and reduce their reliance on fossil fuels. Many states are doing the opposite and allowing utilities to charge solar users additional fees.
how would you propose taxing EV's for road use since today that is primarily the use of the gas tax? subsidies often have unintended consequences.
I think we'll have to tax based on vehicle's mileage and not what the fuel source is. When you renew your license, the mileage traveled will be recorded and you will taxes based on that.

The only problem with that is that low-income vehicle owners pay with each tank, and they are essentially paying-as-they-go. Paying when they renew license tags means they are paying all at once, and may not have that chunk of money available. That might create a burden for them.

There could be a utility tax placed on your vehicle charger, that is separate from your house usage. Instead of paying per gallon for gas, you would pay a fee per KW hour on your car charger.

However, I think it will probably be the mileage tax on vehicle tags is the most likely method.
poor people might not have a chunk of money to afford a vehicle charger, they'll be paying as they go outside the home
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alejandro46
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by alejandro46 »

We already pay taxes on the electricity we buy. The additional "EV Fees" are just money grabs by the states, even though most are fine paying a fair share.

Nobody needs an EV charger, they can be plugged into a washer plug. There used to be a tax rebate to install a charger but I think the funds ran out.
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FangKC
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by FangKC »

The taxes we pay on electricity currently don't have a funding split to funnel money to the state highway program. The legislature would have to raise electrical taxes a certain amount to fund that.

The reason I said the transportation tax would meter off the home charger is so the added tax would not be on the KW hours for the house, just the vehicles.

There will also be homeowners that don't have a car, and their home electrical tax should not be taxed for highways in the same way that people who don't own cars don't pay gasoline taxes.
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by flyingember »

Leaded gasoline was finally phased out worldwide yesterday when Algeria stopped selling it.
Article says 17 countries sold it in 2002.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/30/business ... index.html
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by longviewmo »

flyingember wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:26 am Leaded gasoline was finally phased out worldwide yesterday when Algeria stopped selling it.
Article says 17 countries sold it in 2002.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/30/business ... index.html
Aviation gasoline still exists. https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/avgas/
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by flyingember »

longviewmo wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:54 am
flyingember wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:26 am Leaded gasoline was finally phased out worldwide yesterday when Algeria stopped selling it.
Article says 17 countries sold it in 2002.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/30/business ... index.html
Aviation gasoline still exists. https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/avgas/
It mentions that in the article and points out it's a tiny percentage of what leaded gasoline use once was
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by flyingember »

https://www.kcur.org/news/2021-10-05/th ... t-happened

Article on the first wind farm in KS 20 years later
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alejandro46
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Re: Alternative Energy

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https://www.eei.org/issuesandpolicy/Pages/NEHC.aspx
ELECTRIC COMPANIES JOIN TOGETHER TO FORM NATIONAL ELECTRIC HIGHWAY COALITION

WASHINGTON (December 7, 2021) – The Edison Electric Institute (EEI) today announced the formation of the National Electric Highway Coalition, which merges the Electric Highway Coalition and the Midwest Electric Vehicle Charging Infrastructure Collaboration and now includes additional participating electric companies from across the country. Currently consisting of 51 investor-owned electric companies, one electric cooperative, and the Tennessee Valley Authority, the coalition is committed to providing electric vehicle (EV) fast charging ports that will allow the public to drive EVs with confidence along major U.S. travel corridors by the end of 2023.

“EEI and our member companies are leading the clean energy transformation, and electric transportation is key to reducing carbon emissions across our economy,” said EEI President Tom Kuhn. “With the formation of the National Electric Highway Coalition, we are committed to investing in and providing the charging infrastructure necessary to facilitate electric vehicle growth and to helping alleviate any remaining customer range anxiety.”

To date, EEI’s member companies have invested more than $3 billion in customer programs and projects to deploy EV charging infrastructure and to accelerate electric transportation. As EV sales continue to grow, EEI estimates that more than 100,000 EV fast charging ports will be needed to support the projected 22 million EVs that will be on U.S. roads in 2030.

“By merging and expanding the existing efforts underway to build fast charging infrastructure along major travel corridors, we are building a foundational EV charging network that will help to encourage more customers to purchase an electric vehicle,” said Kuhn. “We owe a great deal of gratitude to the electric companies that created so much momentum at the regional level, paving the way for us to expand this effort nationally.”

“We are delighted to see this collaboration come together with both regional and national scopes to develop a framework and to provide charging stations across state boundaries,” said Alliance for Transportation Electrification Executive Director Philip B. Jones. “EV owners want to charge conveniently and quickly without a fear of running out of electric fuel. Moreover, the EV industry, led by electric companies and cooperatives, automobile OEMs, and EV service providers, need to accelerate the deployment of charging infrastructure now. With scores of new battery-electric vehicles coming to market over the next couple of years, we need to get the charging infrastructure sited, built, and funded. The federal infrastructure funding will help a great deal in this effort, but this is only a down payment of a much larger effort. Electric companies, which are regulated by state commissions, can help leverage all funding sources, help fill the infrastructure gaps, and help manage the deployment of these chargers with a long-term view.”




“The auto industry is committed to vehicle electrification and will invest over $330 billion in the technology by 2025. Additionally, a record number of EV models are expected to be available in this time frame," said Alliance for Automotive Innovation President and CEO John Bozzella. "This, however, is only one piece of the puzzle. Addressing issues such as grid resiliency, energy demands for charging, and equitable rollout of charging infrastructure will be an integral part of a successful future for EVs in America. The National Electric Highway Coalition will support the EV transition by facilitating electric power industry engagement in transportation electrification across the country. We look forward to continuing our partnership with EEI and collaborating with public and private sector stakeholders to expand the charging infrastructure necessary to meet the ambitious targets for electrification in the coming years.”

EEI member companies are electrifying their own fleets and, collectively, are on track to electrify more than one-third of all fleet vehicles by 2030. Electric companies also remain engaged with commercial fleet customers and are working together on electrification planning for medium- and heavy-duty vehicles.

More information about the National Electric Highway Coalition and a full list of participating electric companies can be found on the coalition’s webpage.
​​
Includes Evergy and Ameren Missouri.
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alejandro46
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by alejandro46 »

First Rivian Service Center located in Olathe. Target start date 9/1/2021. Electric Truck/SUV company, heavily backed by Amazon, Ford, others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivian

Operates in Michigan, Irvine, large manufacturing plant in Normal IL (former Mitsbuishi plan) and recently announced a new large plant built from ground up in Georgia. Also have "Experience Centers" they're opening up, similar to Tesla store on Plaza. I would not be surprised if they open a similar type of store up in the future in KC. Like Tesla, Rivian will have mobile technicians to come out to you to perform most service, so you wouldn't need to drive all the way down there. Plus, no need for oil changes, timing belts, etc.

KS Service Center: 601 N Lindenwood Dr Olathe, KS 66062

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Example of Rivian Hub "experience center" in Santa Monica - not a service center, but could come to KC some time.
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by DColeKC »

Some one poke holes in this article because while I'm all for becoming more efficient and decreasing pollution, I've never bought into the notion renewable energy is realistic.

https://heartlanddailynews.com/2022/08/ ... TlY92KTznM
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

Renewables supplying 100% of our energy needs 24/7 365 days a year is a dream.
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Re: Alternative Energy

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DColeKC wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:38 pm Some one poke holes in this article because while I'm all for becoming more efficient and decreasing pollution, I've never bought into the notion renewable energy is realistic.

https://heartlanddailynews.com/2022/08/ ... TlY92KTznM
I can't believe I clicked on that link! that entire website 🤮🤮🤮
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DColeKC
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by DColeKC »

bones.25 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:58 pm
DColeKC wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:38 pm Some one poke holes in this article because while I'm all for becoming more efficient and decreasing pollution, I've never bought into the notion renewable energy is realistic.

https://heartlanddailynews.com/2022/08/ ... TlY92KTznM
I can't believe I clicked on that link! that entire website 🤮🤮🤮
I tried to do some background on the site before sharing. I didn’t find anything about bias. And the author himself seems very legit regarding economics.
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by shinatoo »

I think renewables have their place. Mainly as a bridge to nuclear and future tech. Everyone is now starting to realize that hydro is a renewable too.

Whatever the solution, with the Rising economy's in India and Africa we need something to keep fossil fuel growth in check.
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