Politics

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phuqueue
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Re: Politics

Post by phuqueue »

DColeKC wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:21 pm
phuqueue wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:54 pm
You "can't imagine it being all that bad for anyone," but something like 90% of black people clearly imagined that Trump was worse for them in 2016, and a similar proportion are currently polling in favor of Biden. Maybe you ought to just admit that they might know something about their own circumstances that you don't? That Biden and Harris are terrible is true but not the point. These are the options that our broken-by-design system have puked up for us. Biden and Harris don't have to be good, they just have to be better than the alternative. And if you don't understand why other people who have had lived experiences vastly different from yours might see them as being better than Trump, you could consider that that might say more about you than it does about them. Or do you wanna just keep trying to crack this nut with all the vast accumulated expertise that your however many years on this planet as a white guy have afforded you?
First of all, you know what race I am? I don't remember ever mentioning my race but I'm guessing because I'm not a flat out Biden supporter or Democrat, I can only be a white male correct?
I could admittedly be confusing you with someone else, but I'm pretty sure I remember you already acknowledging that you were a white guy in some earlier post. In any case, the old "you don't even know me, don't go making assumptions about me" shtick falls a little flat if it is not accompanied by a revelation that the assumption was actually incorrect.
You're kind of making my point. 90% of the black population who vote have voted democrat for almost 60 years. I don't think they know what's best for them despite a growing number of young black republicans who are spreading the message that there is in fact, another option. The democrats have had the black vote in their pocket for decades and have mainly only delivered failed promises, mass incarceration and a major welfare state. Not to mention helped facilitate the epidemic known as fatherless homes amongst the black community. The black community is so indoctrinated to vote democrat, that anytime a black person is openly conservative, they're called Uncle Tom's. Similar to how an openly gay republican is looked down upon by people in their own community.

Black Americans don't know what the other side has to offer.
The Republican platform is geared specifically toward hurting black people, and that's not me saying that, it's Reagan and Bush 1 campaign strategist Lee Atwater (slur redaction mine, of course):

You start out in 1954 by saying, "N*****, n*****, n*****". By 1968 you can't say "n*****"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this", is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "N*****, n*****". So, any way you look at it, race is coming on the back-burner. (quote starts around 16:30 in the interview audio)

So when 90% of them look at Republicans and say "uh, no thanks," I'm pretty sure they know exactly what that side has to offer.
There's much to unpack but a few quick hitters I've read about young black conservatives and what they like about the republican party.

Equality of Opportunity (Not equality of outcome)
Learning that the democratic party has used a narrative of systemic, structural and institutional racism for power and votes.
“The sociological truths are that America, while still flawed in its race relations … is now the least racist white-majority society in the world; has a better record of legal protection of minorities than any other society, white or black; offers more opportunities to a greater number of black persons than any other society, including all those of Africa."

Is it hard to imagine that some black americans feel democratic policies have harmed their community the most? That doesn't make them "anti-black". Good on them for challenging what they've been told they're supposed to believe. I think more black republicans is a perfect way to actually get things done for that community.
This is basically just confirmation bias. You have no real basis for assuming that the ~10% of black people who are Republicans know better than the ~90% who aren't what is "harming" the community, it just happens that the 10% more closely align with your own beliefs.

Anyway, the supposed dichotomy between "equality of opportunity" and "equality of outcome" is a myth. These are the same thing. One generation's outcome becomes the next generation's opportunity. This is not only common sense (explaining, for instance, why people want to live in good school districts), it has also been born out empirically by any number of studies.

DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

phuqueue wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:21 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:21 pm
phuqueue wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:54 pm
You "can't imagine it being all that bad for anyone," but something like 90% of black people clearly imagined that Trump was worse for them in 2016, and a similar proportion are currently polling in favor of Biden. Maybe you ought to just admit that they might know something about their own circumstances that you don't? That Biden and Harris are terrible is true but not the point. These are the options that our broken-by-design system have puked up for us. Biden and Harris don't have to be good, they just have to be better than the alternative. And if you don't understand why other people who have had lived experiences vastly different from yours might see them as being better than Trump, you could consider that that might say more about you than it does about them. Or do you wanna just keep trying to crack this nut with all the vast accumulated expertise that your however many years on this planet as a white guy have afforded you?
First of all, you know what race I am? I don't remember ever mentioning my race but I'm guessing because I'm not a flat out Biden supporter or Democrat, I can only be a white male correct?
I could admittedly be confusing you with someone else, but I'm pretty sure I remember you already acknowledging that you were a white guy in some earlier post. In any case, the old "you don't even know me, don't go making assumptions about me" shtick falls a little flat if it is not accompanied by a revelation that the assumption was actually incorrect.
You're kind of making my point. 90% of the black population who vote have voted democrat for almost 60 years. I don't think they know what's best for them despite a growing number of young black republicans who are spreading the message that there is in fact, another option. The democrats have had the black vote in their pocket for decades and have mainly only delivered failed promises, mass incarceration and a major welfare state. Not to mention helped facilitate the epidemic known as fatherless homes amongst the black community. The black community is so indoctrinated to vote democrat, that anytime a black person is openly conservative, they're called Uncle Tom's. Similar to how an openly gay republican is looked down upon by people in their own community.

Black Americans don't know what the other side has to offer.
The Republican platform is geared specifically toward hurting black people, and that's not me saying that, it's Reagan and Bush 1 campaign strategist Lee Atwater (slur redaction mine, of course):

You start out in 1954 by saying, "N*****, n*****, n*****". By 1968 you can't say "n*****"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this", is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "N*****, n*****". So, any way you look at it, race is coming on the back-burner. (quote starts around 16:30 in the interview audio)

So when 90% of them look at Republicans and say "uh, no thanks," I'm pretty sure they know exactly what that side has to offer.
There's much to unpack but a few quick hitters I've read about young black conservatives and what they like about the republican party.

Equality of Opportunity (Not equality of outcome)
Learning that the democratic party has used a narrative of systemic, structural and institutional racism for power and votes.
“The sociological truths are that America, while still flawed in its race relations … is now the least racist white-majority society in the world; has a better record of legal protection of minorities than any other society, white or black; offers more opportunities to a greater number of black persons than any other society, including all those of Africa."

Is it hard to imagine that some black americans feel democratic policies have harmed their community the most? That doesn't make them "anti-black". Good on them for challenging what they've been told they're supposed to believe. I think more black republicans is a perfect way to actually get things done for that community.
This is basically just confirmation bias. You have no real basis for assuming that the ~10% of black people who are Republicans know better than the ~90% who aren't what is "harming" the community, it just happens that the 10% more closely align with your own beliefs.

Anyway, the supposed dichotomy between "equality of opportunity" and "equality of outcome" is a myth. These are the same thing. One generation's outcome becomes the next generation's opportunity. This is not only common sense (explaining, for instance, why people want to live in good school districts), it has also been born out empirically by any number of studies.
I've never acknowledged my race on here that I'm aware of and does that make a difference in you respecting my opinion or not? Would you treat me differently if you knew I were a black person who tries to remain in the middle but tends to lean to the right? Why should I be forced to reveal my race to you? I guess if you saying, "as a white man" is ok, you'll have to accept my response as falling a little flat according to your words.


Are you really trying to explain today's republican party's view of African Americans based off what a guy who died almost 20 years ago said almost 30 years ago? That's just pointless and lazy.

Confirmation bias? I didn't say the 10% of blacks who vote republican know more than the 90% who vote democratic. I was asked what the other side has to offer and gave answers not based on my own opinion, but what black conservatives talk about. Why they decide to follow the republican party and why they blame the democratic party of the current state of the African American lives in this country.

Lastly, Equality of opportunity and equality of outcome are completely different. Like, what not even kind of the same thing. Equality of opportunity simply means we all get the start the race at the same time. Equality of outcome means we all should finish at the same time, despite how hard each person works. Democrats want to pass socialist type programs including guaranteed basic income and tax the shit out of the rich to redistribute to the poor. These are small attempts are equality of outcome which in reality is an oppressive idea. Not shocked it's supported by the left. You mention school districts. Republicans are all for school choice which would allow equality of opportunity for poor parents to send their kids to better schools and not be stuck with one choice based on where they live.

One thing I do know. The African American community will NEVER reach it's full potential if they continue to always vote democrat. I may never see it in my lifetime, but a slow shift is happening with a black conservative movement.

phuqueue
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Re: Politics

Post by phuqueue »

DColeKC wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:14 pm
I've never acknowledged my race on here that I'm aware of and does that make a difference in you respecting my opinion or not? Would you treat me differently if you knew I were a black person who tries to remain in the middle but tends to lean to the right? Why should I be forced to reveal my race to you? I guess if you saying, "as a white man" is ok, you'll have to accept my response as falling a little flat according to your words.
Yes, to the extent that you believe you know what is best for the black community, your being black would make a pretty big difference. Much like how I wouldn't be interested in reading your book about what it was like to be a member of the Rolling Stones, because you weren't, I also am not all that interested in what you think it is like to be a black person, because you aren't.
Are you really trying to explain today's republican party's view of African Americans based off what a guy who died almost 20 years ago said almost 30 years ago? That's just pointless and lazy.
Are you gonna make even a cursory effort to explain how Atwater's words, which continue to describe the core of today's Republican platform (you literally name-dropped "states rights" in this very thread two days ago), are no longer actually relevant, or is "he said it a long time ago and died a long time ago" good enough for you? "Pointless and lazy," indeed. Careful what else you apply that logic to or we might have to tear up the Constitution and abolish Christianity.
Confirmation bias? I didn't say the 10% of blacks who vote republican know more than the 90% who vote democratic. I was asked what the other side has to offer and gave answers not based on my own opinion, but what black conservatives talk about. Why they decide to follow the republican party and why they blame the democratic party of the current state of the African American lives in this country.
And you provided this information in service of your point that black people would be better off voting Republican. No matter that the overwhelming majority of black people -- who, again, understand their circumstances and their stakes far better than you do, no matter what you might think -- disagree, you found a small group whose existence aligns with what you want to be true. This is called confirmation bias.
Lastly, Equality of opportunity and equality of outcome are completely different. Like, what not even kind of the same thing. Equality of opportunity simply means we all get the start the race at the same time. Equality of outcome means we all should finish at the same time, despite how hard each person works. Democrats want to pass socialist type programs including guaranteed basic income and tax the shit out of the rich to redistribute to the poor. These are small attempts are equality of outcome which in reality is an oppressive idea. Not shocked it's supported by the left. You mention school districts. Republicans are all for school choice which would allow equality of opportunity for poor parents to send their kids to better schools and not be stuck with one choice based on where they live.
Yes, I know what "equality of opportunity" and "equality of outcome" mean in concept, but having a name and a definition for something doesn't mean that it actually exists. A unicorn is a horse with a horn sticking out of its face, but just because I've told you this doesn't mean that you can go out and find a unicorn, because they aren't real.

cityscape
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Re: Politics

Post by cityscape »

Phuqueue, really appreciate your detailed and thoughtful responses. Not trying to pick sides here, but just wanted to thank you for your thoughtful expressions.

Riverite
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Re: Politics

Post by Riverite »

phuqueue wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:28 am
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:14 pm
I've never acknowledged my race on here that I'm aware of and does that make a difference in you respecting my opinion or not? Would you treat me differently if you knew I were a black person who tries to remain in the middle but tends to lean to the right? Why should I be forced to reveal my race to you? I guess if you saying, "as a white man" is ok, you'll have to accept my response as falling a little flat according to your words.
Yes, to the extent that you believe you know what is best for the black community, your being black would make a pretty big difference. Much like how I wouldn't be interested in reading your book about what it was like to be a member of the Rolling Stones, because you weren't, I also am not all that interested in what you think it is like to be a black person, because you aren't.
Are you really trying to explain today's republican party's view of African Americans based off what a guy who died almost 20 years ago said almost 30 years ago? That's just pointless and lazy.
Are you gonna make even a cursory effort to explain how Atwater's words, which continue to describe the core of today's Republican platform (you literally name-dropped "states rights" in this very thread two days ago), are no longer actually relevant, or is "he said it a long time ago and died a long time ago" good enough for you? "Pointless and lazy," indeed. Careful what else you apply that logic to or we might have to tear up the Constitution and abolish Christianity.
Confirmation bias? I didn't say the 10% of blacks who vote republican know more than the 90% who vote democratic. I was asked what the other side has to offer and gave answers not based on my own opinion, but what black conservatives talk about. Why they decide to follow the republican party and why they blame the democratic party of the current state of the African American lives in this country.
And you provided this information in service of your point that black people would be better off voting Republican. No matter that the overwhelming majority of black people -- who, again, understand their circumstances and their stakes far better than you do, no matter what you might think -- disagree, you found a small group whose existence aligns with what you want to be true. This is called confirmation bias.
Lastly, Equality of opportunity and equality of outcome are completely different. Like, what not even kind of the same thing. Equality of opportunity simply means we all get the start the race at the same time. Equality of outcome means we all should finish at the same time, despite how hard each person works. Democrats want to pass socialist type programs including guaranteed basic income and tax the shit out of the rich to redistribute to the poor. These are small attempts are equality of outcome which in reality is an oppressive idea. Not shocked it's supported by the left. You mention school districts. Republicans are all for school choice which would allow equality of opportunity for poor parents to send their kids to better schools and not be stuck with one choice based on where they live.
Yes, I know what "equality of opportunity" and "equality of outcome" mean in concept, but having a name and a definition for something doesn't mean that it actually exists. A unicorn is a horse with a horn sticking out of its face, but just because I've told you this doesn't mean that you can go out and find a unicorn, because they aren't real.
I’ll add that I’m pretty sure at some point you were bragging about how you have a podcast with a black person on it or something, which while not explicitly said de facto implies that you are white.

Not to detract from the idea that dictating what is better for an entire race of people is super weird especially if you aren’t a member of that race. How do you know that a lot of the black people you know who do vote conservative, don’t do it because it is better for black people but instead better for them personally. They could be wealthy business owners who like tax breaks.

DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

“Bragging I was on a podcast with a black person”? Where do you folks come up with these narratives. I mentioned the conversations I’ve had with members of the black community in context while discussing racial relations. You call that “bragging”. Listen, you all sit there and be quiet because you think you can’t have an opinion unless you are a member of what your opinion refers too. I don’t care how much time you’ve spent educating yourself or how involved in other communities you are, unless it’s an opinion about your gender, your race and you’re financial situation, butt out. Also, black people should no longer talk about white privilege because they have no idea what it’s like to be white. I hope that sounds incredibly ridiculous because it should.

Problems get solved with collaboration between races. I’ve not said what I think is best for the black community. I was asked what the republicans have to offer black Americans and literally listed the reason black conservatives say they are republicans. My opinion is why not try out the other side considering shit hasn’t changed by voting Democrat for half a century. It’s obvious no one responding in here has taken the time to understand why some black Americans have joined the Republican Party or why that movement is on an uptick.

I have never claimed to know what’s better for an entire race, but you also labeled my efforts to work with the black community as “bragging”, so I understand.

DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

This reminds me of woke white women with 5 cats that sit at home and share liberal memes all day about racism and police violence. That’s ok though right? Because they work with a “few black people”. God forbid you actually decide to have a more complex and robust opinion than simply falling in line with the liberal agenda. It’s ok to talk about police killing people but the left won’t talk about people killing people. It’s ok to talk about how black men are 3 times more likely to be shot by a cop but don’t mention the fact they commit a disproportionate amount of the crime. Being a full on Democrat has to be exhausting considering they spend all day trying not to step on any cracks and they dance around and try not to offend anyone.

The avoidance to discuss topics head on because the Democratic Party desperately needs the black vote is problematic and much of the reason minorities in this country face the same crap they did 50 years ago.

flyingember
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Re: Politics

Post by flyingember »

DColeKC wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:41 am
It’s ok to talk about how black men are 3 times more likely to be shot by a cop but don’t mention the fact they commit a disproportionate amount of the crime.
The US is about 73% white, 13% black

This is FBI data on arrests by race from 2017

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... s/table-43

8.16 million crimes in 2017. 68% by whites 27% by blacks
So strictly in terms of total amount blacks are committing crime at 2x the rate of whites. So yes, it's a disproportionate amount

So why are blacks being convicted At 5x the rate? In a just system that should be about 2x the rate.
https://www.sentencingproject.org/publi ... e-prisons/



Page 18 of this study has the best chart I could find. It's old, being from 1993, but crime was higher then. And it splits up arrests by the type of crime

https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/hand ... rities.pdf

Crimes where whites were caught at a greater rate than the population were:
DUI, liquor law violations, drunkenness, curfew, vandalism, sex offense (other than rape and prostitution)


Here's newer DUI data. Blacks are actually less likely to be users of drugs, and equal on being a dealer, than whites but are arrested and convicted of drug crimes at 3x the rate of whites. With 100% blind policing whites would be arrested more an convicted more of drug crimes.

https://www.hamiltonproject.org/charts/ ... al_justice


My hunch is how we police finds a lot more minoirities because of historic trends going back to the 1920s. Since we know someone released from prision has a hard time getting a job the imbalances in the system perpetuate crime.


The fundamental problem isn't the disparity in the type of crime or the rate, it's the conviction rate.

We know many felons get out and can't find a job and return to crime. So if the system stops convicting for drugs we would see a lot less recidivism and the black crime rate could go down to be more in line with the population.

DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:58 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:41 am
It’s ok to talk about how black men are 3 times more likely to be shot by a cop but don’t mention the fact they commit a disproportionate amount of the crime.
The US is about 73% white, 13% black

This is FBI data on arrests by race from 2017

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... s/table-43

8.16 million crimes in 2017. 68% by whites 27% by blacks
So strictly in terms of total amount blacks are committing crime at 2x the rate of whites. So yes, it's a disproportionate amount

So why are blacks being convicted At 5x the rate? In a just system that should be about 2x the rate.
https://www.sentencingproject.org/publi ... e-prisons/



Page 18 of this study has the best chart I could find. It's old, being from 1993, but crime was higher then. And it splits up arrests by the type of crime

https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/hand ... rities.pdf

Crimes where whites were caught at a greater rate than the population were:
DUI, liquor law violations, drunkenness, curfew, vandalism, sex offense (other than rape and prostitution)


Here's newer DUI data. Blacks are actually less likely to be users of drugs, and equal on being a dealer, than whites but are arrested and convicted of drug crimes at 3x the rate of whites. With 100% blind policing whites would be arrested more an convicted more of drug crimes.

https://www.hamiltonproject.org/charts/ ... al_justice


My hunch is how we police finds a lot more minoirities because of historic trends going back to the 1920s. Since we know someone released from prision has a hard time getting a job the imbalances in the system perpetuate crime.


The fundamental problem isn't the disparity in the type of crime or the rate, it's the conviction rate.

We know many felons get out and can't find a job and return to crime. So if the system stops convicting for drugs we would see a lot less recidivism and the black crime rate could go down to be more in line with the population.
Thank you for the response and posting sources. Like all data, there's several ways to slice it up and push a point but it's hard to argue most of it. The most alarming crime statistic in my opinion in the fact that despite being only 13% of the population, African Americans are responsible for over half of all murders. Of course they're killing each other and that's one topic I wish movements like BLM would focus all that money and attention on. Not the 12 black wrongfully killed by police each year. Not downplaying the seriousness of police violence at all, but feel the attention and focus is often misplaced when there's literally a war between black men happening in the streets.

I'm 100% for prison reform and would also like us to end the war on drugs. Use the billions upon billions we spend on fighting the drug war to create programs to provide safe drugs to drug addicts, jobs, housing and the ability to get off the drugs.

I hate how in this country, if you're arrested for drugs, we shame you and send you off to prison. You don't learn any skills while in prison and you're treated like an outcast when released. Not only by society but by the workforce. Not shocking when people go back to using and dealing.

flyingember
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Re: Politics

Post by flyingember »

Not half of murders, half of *known* murders. Crime numbers depend on people reporting.

It's the core claim, that systematic racism is skewing the numbers because of purposeful lack of enforcement of crimes by whites.

There's multiple religious groups with claims the church protects sex offenders and blames victims.

Most crimes aren't solved even when reported. So it's not possible to identify the race of an unsolved crime. It could be as simple that white people are better criminals.

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Re: Politics

Post by im2kull »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:58 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:41 am
It’s ok to talk about how black men are 3 times more likely to be shot by a cop but don’t mention the fact they commit a disproportionate amount of the crime.
The US is about 73% white, 13% black

This is FBI data on arrests by race from 2017

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... s/table-43

8.16 million crimes in 2017. 68% by whites 27% by blacks
So strictly in terms of total amount blacks are committing crime at 2x the rate of whites. So yes, it's a disproportionate amount

So why are blacks being convicted At 5x the rate? In a just system that should be about 2x the rate.
https://www.sentencingproject.org/publi ... e-prisons/



Page 18 of this study has the best chart I could find. It's old, being from 1993, but crime was higher then. And it splits up arrests by the type of crime

https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/hand ... rities.pdf

Crimes where whites were caught at a greater rate than the population were:
DUI, liquor law violations, drunkenness, curfew, vandalism, sex offense (other than rape and prostitution)


Here's newer DUI data. Blacks are actually less likely to be users of drugs, and equal on being a dealer, than whites but are arrested and convicted of drug crimes at 3x the rate of whites. With 100% blind policing whites would be arrested more an convicted more of drug crimes.

https://www.hamiltonproject.org/charts/ ... al_justice


My hunch is how we police finds a lot more minoirities because of historic trends going back to the 1920s. Since we know someone released from prision has a hard time getting a job the imbalances in the system perpetuate crime.


The fundamental problem isn't the disparity in the type of crime or the rate, it's the conviction rate.

We know many felons get out and can't find a job and return to crime. So if the system stops convicting for drugs we would see a lot less recidivism and the black crime rate could go down to be more in line with the population.
You forgot one key thing that leads to an increase in convictions: Repeat offenses.

DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:37 pm
Not half of murders, half of *known* murders. Crime numbers depend on people reporting.

It's the core claim, that systematic racism is skewing the numbers because of purposeful lack of enforcement of crimes by whites.

There's multiple religious groups with claims the church protects sex offenders and blames victims.

Most crimes aren't solved even when reported. So it's not possible to identify the race of an unsolved crime. It could be as simple that white people are better criminals.
This is just a slightly educated guess, but if all murders were known, I think the percentage likely increases for the total amount of murders committed by black men. Saying this because we know it's very hard to solve a black on black murder due to witnesses in the black community being fearful to come forward. It's no different than the mob situations were years ago. Not to mention the lack of trust between the police and the community.

I can't find any information that talks about the different reasons white and black people murder. Would be interesting to understand more about that.

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Re: Politics

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:37 pm
Not half of murders, half of *known* murders. Crime numbers depend on people reporting.

It's the core claim, that systematic racism is skewing the numbers because of purposeful lack of enforcement of crimes by whites.

There's multiple religious groups with claims the church protects sex offenders and blames victims.

Most crimes aren't solved even when reported. So it's not possible to identify the race of an unsolved crime. It could be as simple that white people are better criminals.
My quick interjection on this, the specific data point Dcolekc was referring to was the violent crime statistic, which only accounts for crimes that are directly violent towards someone else, I’ll have to search for a data point but I believe it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 52-53%. Hope that helps to clear up the point being made
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Re: Politics

Post by phuqueue »

DColeKC wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:31 am
Listen, you all sit there and be quiet because you think you can’t have an opinion unless you are a member of what your opinion refers too. I don’t care how much time you’ve spent educating yourself or how involved in other communities you are, unless it’s an opinion about your gender, your race and you’re financial situation, butt out.
You are welcome to have an opinion about anything you want. I just think you should try to have the self-awareness to know when your opinion might have been formed in the absence of important relevant information.
Also, black people should no longer talk about white privilege because they have no idea what it’s like to be white. I hope that sounds incredibly ridiculous because it should.
I'm afraid that in this case, ignorance is actually not a two-way street. People on the losing end of a power imbalance will inevitably be far more aware of the consequent inequities because they are the ones suffering from them. What exactly do you think non-white people don't know about "what it's like to be white"? They have basically all the same problems you do, but then they have more.
Problems get solved with collaboration between races. I’ve not said what I think is best for the black community. I was asked what the republicans have to offer black Americans and literally listed the reason black conservatives say they are republicans. My opinion is why not try out the other side considering shit hasn’t changed by voting Democrat for half a century. It’s obvious no one responding in here has taken the time to understand why some black Americans have joined the Republican Party or why that movement is on an uptick.

I have never claimed to know what’s better for an entire race, but you also labeled my efforts to work with the black community as “bragging”, so I understand.
You understand that this is a message board, don't you? That everything you said is still written in your earlier posts and can be easily revisited?
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:21 pm
I don't think they know what's best for them despite a growing number of young black republicans who are spreading the message that there is in fact, another option.
That seems pretty straightforward to me.

The crime discussion looks like it's just based on well-worn right-wing tropes, so I'm not all that interested in diving deep into it, but I'll acknowledge it with a couple broad points:
  • "Criminality" is a social construct (link goes to helpful example/explainer of what this means) that reflects our existing biases and prejudices. It is not some objective law of nature. As such, statements like "black people commit a disproportionate amount of the crime" are, even if true, ultimately meaningless.
  • Even accepting for the sake of argument that talking about "crime" is, in and of itself, meaningful, it is not enough to say that "black people commit a disproportionate amount of the crime" and then leave it at that. What point are you trying to make with that statement? It seems like you just trotted it out to try to score points against the dang PC liberals who are too busy hating on America's finest to ask the real hard questions. Do you have a real point? What is it?

DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

I'm just now realizing this is a message board. I was confused. Please point out where I was "bragging". I'm not disagreeing I talked about my personal time spent with members of the black community in an effort to understand, learn and be a ally. I'm pointing out it's ridiculous to call me discussing those efforts "bragging". That sentiment possibly comes from a place of shame, considering most people who like to talk in defense of the black community haven't spent any time in it.

My opinions are of course going to be biased to some degree. I think it's impossible to have non biased opinions, but they're absolutely educated opinions. Not born out of hate, racism or whom I support politically. I'm also very aware most people who engage with me on here are of opposite opinions.

And what about FBI statistics are "right-wing tropes"? Being 13% of the population and committing 53% of all murders is meaningless? What's the point? The point is the black community are killing each other at alarming rates and no amount of policing will stop that. We have to help the black communities in dozens of ways, starting with better access to quality education. Establishing the importance of family and a two parent household. Having 5 kids with 5 different women shouldn't be a bragging point. Access to small business loans are essential. Get young black kids excited about starting their own small business. Legalizing marijuana and ensuring a large percentage of dispensaries are minority owned. Decriminalizing possession etc.

It blows my mind liberals want to ignore the crime stats. It just shows you don't actually care to fix the issues, just keep dancing around the hard conversations and realities hoping it all gets better. Let's get Biden and Harris in there! With their track record of locking black men up in the thousands, I'm sure they'll be the ones to fix it all.

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Politics

Post by TheLastGentleman »

DColeKC wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:24 pm
And what about FBI statistics are "right-wing tropes"? Being 13% of the population and committing 53% of all murders is meaningless? What's the point? The point is the black community are killing each other at alarming rates and no amount of policing will stop that.
Just so you're aware, presenting that stat without context is a trope of racists trying to blame black people for creating their own problems, because it's "just the way they are" or some BS. If that's how you want to come across, keep using it I guess.

The deeper issue here is poverty. We've known since the dawn of industrialization and urbanization that poverty breeds crime. There wasn't a whole lot of diversity in Victorian Era London, but there's a reason the Ripper murders occurred where they did. We need a more equitable society, and I've seen no evidence that the right is interested in providing that.

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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:58 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:24 pm
And what about FBI statistics are "right-wing tropes"? Being 13% of the population and committing 53% of all murders is meaningless? What's the point? The point is the black community are killing each other at alarming rates and no amount of policing will stop that.
Just so you're aware, presenting that stat without context is a trope of racists trying to blame black people for creating their own problems, because it's "just the way they are" or some BS. If that's how you want to come across, keep using it I guess.

The deeper issue here is poverty. We've known since the dawn of industrialization and urbanization that poverty breeds crime. There wasn't a whole lot of diversity in Victorian Era London, but there's a reason the Ripper murders occurred where they did. We need a more equitable society, and I've seen no evidence that the right is interested in providing that.
And you surely read the next part of my comment where I suggest ways to help the poverty situation? There was plenty of context there.

If you haven't seen where the right is interested in a equitable society, you've not paid attention. Here are just a few of the ways republicans want to tackle the issue.

• Solve the right problem. The problem is not poverty. The problem is that too many Americans are not self-suficient.
• All policies should be pro-work. Work is valued—it is a source of pride and self-esteem, as well as the dividing line between the poor and non-poor.
• Taxpayer dollars must be accompanied by accountability for outcomes.
• Federal programs will fail without a social foundation of better parents and stronger marriages.

EDIT: Democrats' policies hurt those they claim to help. You can't tell me they're interested at all in a equitable society. They've made their living off of keeping poor people poor.

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grovester
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Re: Politics

Post by grovester »

DColeKC wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:07 pm
TheLastGentleman wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:58 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:24 pm
And what about FBI statistics are "right-wing tropes"? Being 13% of the population and committing 53% of all murders is meaningless? What's the point? The point is the black community are killing each other at alarming rates and no amount of policing will stop that.
Just so you're aware, presenting that stat without context is a trope of racists trying to blame black people for creating their own problems, because it's "just the way they are" or some BS. If that's how you want to come across, keep using it I guess.

The deeper issue here is poverty. We've known since the dawn of industrialization and urbanization that poverty breeds crime. There wasn't a whole lot of diversity in Victorian Era London, but there's a reason the Ripper murders occurred where they did. We need a more equitable society, and I've seen no evidence that the right is interested in providing that.
And you surely read the next part of my comment where I suggest ways to help the poverty situation? There was plenty of context there.

If you haven't seen where the right is interested in a equitable society, you've not paid attention. Here are just a few of the ways republicans want to tackle the issue.

• Solve the right problem. The problem is not poverty. The problem is that too many Americans are not self-suficient.
• All policies should be pro-work. Work is valued—it is a source of pride and self-esteem, as well as the dividing line between the poor and non-poor.
• Taxpayer dollars must be accompanied by accountability for outcomes.
• Federal programs will fail without a social foundation of better parents and stronger marriages.

EDIT: Democrats' policies hurt those they claim to help. You can't tell me they're interested at all in a equitable society. They've made their living off of keeping poor people poor.
My name is DColeKC and I only get my information from non-biased sources. I also don't watch Fox News.

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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

grovester wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:45 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:07 pm
TheLastGentleman wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:58 pm


Just so you're aware, presenting that stat without context is a trope of racists trying to blame black people for creating their own problems, because it's "just the way they are" or some BS. If that's how you want to come across, keep using it I guess.

The deeper issue here is poverty. We've known since the dawn of industrialization and urbanization that poverty breeds crime. There wasn't a whole lot of diversity in Victorian Era London, but there's a reason the Ripper murders occurred where they did. We need a more equitable society, and I've seen no evidence that the right is interested in providing that.
And you surely read the next part of my comment where I suggest ways to help the poverty situation? There was plenty of context there.

If you haven't seen where the right is interested in a equitable society, you've not paid attention. Here are just a few of the ways republicans want to tackle the issue.

• Solve the right problem. The problem is not poverty. The problem is that too many Americans are not self-suficient.
• All policies should be pro-work. Work is valued—it is a source of pride and self-esteem, as well as the dividing line between the poor and non-poor.
• Taxpayer dollars must be accompanied by accountability for outcomes.
• Federal programs will fail without a social foundation of better parents and stronger marriages.

EDIT: Democrats' policies hurt those they claim to help. You can't tell me they're interested at all in a equitable society. They've made their living off of keeping poor people poor.
My name is DColeKC and I only get my information from non-biased sources. I also don't watch Fox News.
None of that information came from Fox News. It's actually from a study done at Stanford. You have anything constructive to add or just wanted to get in a personal jab? Why do you democrats like to lead with, "you're using right-wing talking points", "you watch fox news", when all your counter points are left-wing talking points and constantly heard on CNN?

Here's one for you.

My name is Grovester and I offer nothing of substance to this forum, I'm just here to toss around the occasional insult and remind everyone I'm a grumpy pessimist.

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grovester
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Re: Politics

Post by grovester »

Ouch.

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