COVID19

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: COVID19

Post by TheLastGentleman »

From your article
“In an alternate world in which impeachment wasn’t happening, I don’t think the replacement would have been an earlier bill on coronavirus,” said Rep. Brendan Boyle (D-Pa.). “Even as we were passing our Phase 1 coronavirus bill many House Republicans were not taking coronavirus seriously, even mocking the issue.” On March 9, Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-FL) wore a gas mask onto the House floor, appearing to make light of the issue. Another Democratic lawmaker said his GOP colleagues described coronavirus coverage at the time as “hysteria” and wondered why it was getting more attention than the seasonal flu.

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Re: COVID19

Post by DColeKC »

I'm not blaming Trumps terrible response on impeachment. He response is his own fault for caring more about the stock market than anything else.

I'm blaming all of the senate and congress's lack of a timely response on the impeachment trial that they were so obsessed with... both sides. A few republicans organized a briefing on the covid-19 topic with only 14 in attendance because it happened to be on the last day members of the senate had to submit their impeachment trial questions. Tom Cotton (R) was the only member speaking out and freaking out about the ordeal in the very beginning. Dems tried to blame their response on "not being briefed" even though they are fully capable of finding and reading the same information Tom Cotton did.

The democrats decided to start an impeachment trial knowing they'd likely win, but it wouldn't mean anything besides a footnote in history. Trump deserves much of the blame, but let's not pretend that all of government isn't to blame as well.

I'm not standing up for Trump and haven't seen anyone on this forum do so. I am not blaming the entire reaction solely on him, that's just too easy and allows to many elected officials off the hook.

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Re: COVID19

Post by DColeKC »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:06 pm
From your article
“In an alternate world in which impeachment wasn’t happening, I don’t think the replacement would have been an earlier bill on coronavirus,” said Rep. Brendan Boyle (D-Pa.). “Even as we were passing our Phase 1 coronavirus bill many House Republicans were not taking coronavirus seriously, even mocking the issue.” On March 9, Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-FL) wore a gas mask onto the House floor, appearing to make light of the issue. Another Democratic lawmaker said his GOP colleagues described coronavirus coverage at the time as “hysteria” and wondered why it was getting more attention than the seasonal flu.
I don't think an earlier bill was the answer, but a focus on what's already been mentioned. Stockpiling PPE, ramping up manufacturing and putting out consistent messages about wearing masks etc. Of course both sides are going to blame each other, that's our wonderful system! Many of them were wrong about this entire deal.

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Re: COVID19

Post by TrolliKC »

DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:25 pm
Riverite wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:18 pm
mykn wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:14 pm
> Not saying his response was good because it was terrible, but what realistic options were available and could have been implemented?

I mean,... taking it seriously in the many months the government had to get things ready before it hit the US, stockpiled PPE, used authorization to manufacture PPE, push for a better stimulus so people didn’t have to choose between going broke staying home or getting sick going to work, trump could have just work a damn mask to set an example, not suggested dangerous treatments, listened to experts...
I hate that now even when people know he is rubbish, they have decided that hypothetically no one in their mind would have done a better job, even though clearly anyone else with the same information as the president would’ve just listened to the experts
I'm for sure not saying that, not sure how I can be anymore clear that I believe Trumps response in addition to all of governments response was 100% hot garbage. I think they can all share the blame evenly because most were obsessed with impeachment during the most crucial time to get ahead of this virus.
Trumps continued response is garbage. Won't be seen in a mask, holding rally's indoors, removing stickers so his supporters won't be inconvenienced by social distancing...

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Re: COVID19

Post by DColeKC »

^^^ Agreed.

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Re: COVID19

Post by mykn »

DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:07 pm
I'm not blaming Trumps terrible response on impeachment. He response is his own fault for caring more about the stock market than anything else.

I'm blaming all of the senate and congress's lack of a timely response on the impeachment trial that they were so obsessed with... both sides. A few republicans organized a briefing on the covid-19 topic with only 14 in attendance because it happened to be on the last day members of the senate had to submit their impeachment trial questions. Tom Cotton (R) was the only member speaking out and freaking out about the ordeal in the very beginning. Dems tried to blame their response on "not being briefed" even though they are fully capable of finding and reading the same information Tom Cotton did.

The democrats decided to start an impeachment trial knowing they'd likely win, but it wouldn't mean anything besides a footnote in history. Trump deserves much of the blame, but let's not pretend that all of government isn't to blame as well.

I'm not standing up for Trump and haven't seen anyone on this forum do so. I am not blaming the entire reaction solely on him, that's just too easy and allows to many elected officials off the hook.
This is the most centrist garbage I’ve read in a very long time. Good job

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Re: COVID19

Post by DColeKC »

mykn wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:23 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:07 pm
I'm not blaming Trumps terrible response on impeachment. He response is his own fault for caring more about the stock market than anything else.

I'm blaming all of the senate and congress's lack of a timely response on the impeachment trial that they were so obsessed with... both sides. A few republicans organized a briefing on the covid-19 topic with only 14 in attendance because it happened to be on the last day members of the senate had to submit their impeachment trial questions. Tom Cotton (R) was the only member speaking out and freaking out about the ordeal in the very beginning. Dems tried to blame their response on "not being briefed" even though they are fully capable of finding and reading the same information Tom Cotton did.

The democrats decided to start an impeachment trial knowing they'd likely win, but it wouldn't mean anything besides a footnote in history. Trump deserves much of the blame, but let's not pretend that all of government isn't to blame as well.

I'm not standing up for Trump and haven't seen anyone on this forum do so. I am not blaming the entire reaction solely on him, that's just too easy and allows to many elected officials off the hook.
This is the most centrist garbage I’ve read in a very long time. Good job
My bad for trying to see things from a non-biased perspective. You must not read much.

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Re: COVID19

Post by FangKC »

According to ABC News:

Dr. Anthony Fauci warns the country is going in the wrong direction in COVID management; warns we could be on track to 100,000 cases a day.

A National Institutes of Health study has found talking can spread COVID-19 droplets into the air, and leave them in confined spaces for up to 14 minutes.

Arizona has activated crisis standards in its' hospitals' ICUs.

In California, beaches are being closed and fireworks shows cancelled. The state will see more restrictions again.

Infections rising in 35 states. 17 states are slowing their reopenings, or reversing.

New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut have imposed quarantines against visitors from many US states with high infection rates.

In Florida, 25 percent of infections are in Miami-Dade County. Masks are now mandatory on the beach in Miami Beach. Calls for a statewide mask mandate, but the governor there has not acted.

The European Union opens its' borders tomorrow, but visitors from the USA will not be allowed to enter. Russia and Brazil are also on the risk list.

In a speech today, former Vice President accused Trump of "abandoning the country he leads" and "failing us," saying Trump: "surrendered, waved the white flag, left the battlefield." Biden called wearing a mask "responsibility" and "patriotic."

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Re: COVID19

Post by phuqueue »

DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:41 pm
mykn wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:23 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:07 pm
I'm not blaming Trumps terrible response on impeachment. He response is his own fault for caring more about the stock market than anything else.

I'm blaming all of the senate and congress's lack of a timely response on the impeachment trial that they were so obsessed with... both sides. A few republicans organized a briefing on the covid-19 topic with only 14 in attendance because it happened to be on the last day members of the senate had to submit their impeachment trial questions. Tom Cotton (R) was the only member speaking out and freaking out about the ordeal in the very beginning. Dems tried to blame their response on "not being briefed" even though they are fully capable of finding and reading the same information Tom Cotton did.

The democrats decided to start an impeachment trial knowing they'd likely win, but it wouldn't mean anything besides a footnote in history. Trump deserves much of the blame, but let's not pretend that all of government isn't to blame as well.

I'm not standing up for Trump and haven't seen anyone on this forum do so. I am not blaming the entire reaction solely on him, that's just too easy and allows to many elected officials off the hook.
This is the most centrist garbage I’ve read in a very long time. Good job
My bad for trying to see things from a non-biased perspective. You must not read much.
There is no such thing as a "non-biased perspective" and the idea that the most correct position is the one that neatly splits the difference between two sides is fallacious.

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Re: COVID19

Post by DColeKC »

phuqueue wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:29 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:41 pm
mykn wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:23 pm


This is the most centrist garbage I’ve read in a very long time. Good job
My bad for trying to see things from a non-biased perspective. You must not read much.
There is no such thing as a "non-biased perspective" and the idea that the most correct position is the one that neatly splits the difference between two sides is fallacious.
Notice the key word in my sentence.... "TRY". I obviously have my known biases and unknown biases. Some people, like MYKN are so loyal to one side that a rational argument can't be made. I mean just because I've not said I hate Trumps guts, they assume I'm defending him? Just because I believe that both parties tend to completely suck at governing and choose not to claim one, I must be a Trump lover or something right?!

Trump, McConnell, Schumer, Pelosi etc are ALL hot garbage in my book. Oh, and we can't forget Pence, he's a real treat.

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Re: COVID19

Post by Riverite »

DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:01 pm
phuqueue wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:29 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:41 pm


My bad for trying to see things from a non-biased perspective. You must not read much.
There is no such thing as a "non-biased perspective" and the idea that the most correct position is the one that neatly splits the difference between two sides is fallacious.
Notice the key word in my sentence.... "TRY". I obviously have my known biases and unknown biases. Some people, like MYKN are so loyal to one side that a rational argument can't be made. I mean just because I've not said I hate Trumps guts, they assume I'm defending him? Just because I believe that both parties tend to completely suck at governing and choose not to claim one, I must be a Trump lover or something right?!

Trump, McConnell, Schumer, Pelosi etc are ALL hot garbage in my book. Oh, and we can't forget Pence, he's a real treat.
The point is a false equivalency, you are free to not like pelosi or Schumer. But to categorize them as bad as McConnell who is flouting constitutional conventions or trump who thinks he is above the law is disingenuous.

By saying they are all the same, you are downplaying whenever someone puts human lives or our democracy at risk.

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Re: COVID19

Post by DColeKC »

Riverite wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:33 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:01 pm
phuqueue wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:29 pm

There is no such thing as a "non-biased perspective" and the idea that the most correct position is the one that neatly splits the difference between two sides is fallacious.
Notice the key word in my sentence.... "TRY". I obviously have my known biases and unknown biases. Some people, like MYKN are so loyal to one side that a rational argument can't be made. I mean just because I've not said I hate Trumps guts, they assume I'm defending him? Just because I believe that both parties tend to completely suck at governing and choose not to claim one, I must be a Trump lover or something right?!

Trump, McConnell, Schumer, Pelosi etc are ALL hot garbage in my book. Oh, and we can't forget Pence, he's a real treat.
The point is a false equivalency, you are free to not like pelosi or Schumer. But to categorize them as bad as McConnell who is flouting constitutional conventions or trump who thinks he is above the law is disingenuous.

By saying they are all the same, you are downplaying whenever someone puts human lives or our democracy at risk.
That's my opinion and I'm not saying they're equally as terrible, obviously Trump and McConnell are much worse. I am saying that in my opinion, both parties are equally as bad for their own various reasons. I've never understood blind party loyalty or voting down the party line. I'd rather personally pick and choose from all the options presented to me and not be tied to a choice because that persons name has a (D) or (R) next to it.

I wish we lived in a world where we could go back and have this exact pandemic happen under Obama. While I'm positive he would handle it much better than Trump, I'm not so sure the overall amount of people infected or killed by Covid-19 would be dramatically different. Of course any democrat is going to laugh at that and say Obama would have prevented 100's of thousands of deaths.

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: COVID19

Post by TheLastGentleman »

There is a difference between being objective and being “unbiased.” If you look at the world with clear eyes you will form opinions about it.

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Re: COVID19

Post by FangKC »

DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:01 pm

That's my opinion and I'm not saying they're equally as terrible, obviously Trump and McConnell are much worse. I am saying that in my opinion, both parties are equally as bad for their own various reasons. I've never understood blind party loyalty or voting down the party line. I'd rather personally pick and choose from all the options presented to me and not be tied to a choice because that persons name has a (D) or (R) next to it.

I wish we lived in a world where we could go back and have this exact pandemic happen under Obama. While I'm positive he would handle it much better than Trump, I'm not so sure the overall amount of people infected or killed by Covid-19 would be dramatically different. Of course any democrat is going to laugh at that and say Obama would have prevented 100's of thousands of deaths.

How America built the best pandemic response system in history – and threw it away


The Trump administration destroyed an infrastructure, built over two decades, that may have been humanity’s most powerful weapon against new diseases.


https://www.newstatesman.com/world/nort ... -flu-avian

A pandemic plan was in place. Trump abandoned it — and science — in the face of Covid-19

https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the ... id-19-era/

Note the date on the following:

The Trump administration has made the US less ready for infectious disease outbreaks like coronavirus

February 3, 2020 8.51am EST
...
The Trump administration has done exactly the opposite: It has slashed funding for the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and its infectious disease research. For fiscal year 2020, Trump proposed cutting the CDC budget by US$1.3 billion, nearly 20% below the 2019 level.
...
Every year since taking office, Trump has asked for deep cuts into research on emerging diseases – including the CDC’s small center on emerging and “zoonotic” infectious diseases that jump the species barrier from animals to humans. The new coronavirus is just the latest example of these threats.
...
In 2018, Trump tried to cut $65 million from this budget – a 10% reduction. In 2019, he sought a 19% reduction. For 2020, he proposed to cut federal spending on emerging infectious and zoonotic diseases by 20%. This would mean spending $100 million less in 2020 to study how such diseases infect humans than the U.S. did just two years ago.
...
https://theconversation.com/the-trump- ... rus-130983

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Re: COVID19

Post by DColeKC »

FangKC wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:11 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:01 pm

That's my opinion and I'm not saying they're equally as terrible, obviously Trump and McConnell are much worse. I am saying that in my opinion, both parties are equally as bad for their own various reasons. I've never understood blind party loyalty or voting down the party line. I'd rather personally pick and choose from all the options presented to me and not be tied to a choice because that persons name has a (D) or (R) next to it.

I wish we lived in a world where we could go back and have this exact pandemic happen under Obama. While I'm positive he would handle it much better than Trump, I'm not so sure the overall amount of people infected or killed by Covid-19 would be dramatically different. Of course any democrat is going to laugh at that and say Obama would have prevented 100's of thousands of deaths.

How America built the best pandemic response system in history – and threw it away


The Trump administration destroyed an infrastructure, built over two decades, that may have been humanity’s most powerful weapon against new diseases.


https://www.newstatesman.com/world/nort ... -flu-avian

A pandemic plan was in place. Trump abandoned it — and science — in the face of Covid-19

https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the ... id-19-era/

Note the date on the following:

The Trump administration has made the US less ready for infectious disease outbreaks like coronavirus

February 3, 2020 8.51am EST
...
The Trump administration has done exactly the opposite: It has slashed funding for the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and its infectious disease research. For fiscal year 2020, Trump proposed cutting the CDC budget by US$1.3 billion, nearly 20% below the 2019 level.
...
Every year since taking office, Trump has asked for deep cuts into research on emerging diseases – including the CDC’s small center on emerging and “zoonotic” infectious diseases that jump the species barrier from animals to humans. The new coronavirus is just the latest example of these threats.
...
In 2018, Trump tried to cut $65 million from this budget – a 10% reduction. In 2019, he sought a 19% reduction. For 2020, he proposed to cut federal spending on emerging infectious and zoonotic diseases by 20%. This would mean spending $100 million less in 2020 to study how such diseases infect humans than the U.S. did just two years ago.
...
https://theconversation.com/the-trump- ... rus-130983
Aware of all of this, I still believe that if this had happened under Obama, even with all those teams and plans in place, we still would be in a similar situation as we currently are with Covid-19. It seems like all those brilliant scientific minds had some great ideas, but making sure we have a national stockpile of PPE and medical equipment wasn't one of them. With hindsight, that seems like such a basic concept and hopefully one we take seriously for the next pandemic.
"It would have been bad even with the best of governments, It has been an absolute chaotic disaster when that mindset — of 'what's in it for me' and 'to heck with everybody else' — when that mindset is operationalized in our government." - Barrack Obama

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Re: COVID19

Post by Riverite »

The initial wave may have been similar, though less severe because they were already aware of potential pandemics, however the second wave the south is now entering would not have happened with proper leadership, by pushing states to open early and encouraging distrust in the numbers, it is certain to get worse

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Re: COVID19

Post by grovester »

And if you don't think Jared Kushner wasn't hijacking PPE for personal or political gain, you're naive.

The full weight of the US federal government could have acquired/manufactured what we needed. They chose not to.

Between the botched initial CDC test and this https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-is- ... ays-report

The US lost the opportunity to squash this.

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Re: COVID19

Post by flyingember »

DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:09 pm

Aware of all of this, I still believe that if this had happened under Obama, even with all those teams and plans in place, we still would be in a similar situation as we currently are with Covid-19. It seems like all those brilliant scientific minds had some great ideas, but making sure we have a national stockpile of PPE and medical equipment wasn't one of them. With hindsight, that seems like such a basic concept and hopefully one we take seriously for the next pandemic.
That's fundamentally impossible to be true.

Let's assume the response plan was the same and the same skilled team was there and let's say the executive branch teams and governors are all equally capable and willing in both cases. Let's assume the same or similar issues with supplies, since that's a fair point.


Trump did order certain flight controls early on and that's about where I imagine history splits at in this what if.

Fundamentally a Democrat like Obama would be more likely to give executive order requiring all governors to make plans to shut down compared to a Republican more focused on it being a state decision with similar fed vs state decisions coming in all the other aspects early on of note. One thing never done is any sort of national decision mobilizing the medical community towards fighting Covid instead of the private decision to shut down, something I picture a Democrat doing more

A huge part of our problem is the response was too different across the country with too many different standards.

We can see this even hyper local where KC does something, the state of KS does the same thing a little later but Clay County (outside KC) does something different.

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Re: COVID19

Post by DColeKC »

Riverite wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:29 pm
The initial wave may have been similar, though less severe because they were already aware of potential pandemics, however the second wave the south is now entering would not have happened with proper leadership, by pushing states to open early and encouraging distrust in the numbers, it is certain to get worse
I'm not sure the same response would have happened but it would have been likely. The states that opened early are lead by republican governors and I feel they'd be defiant to a democratic president telling them to shut things down considering the POTUS has very little say in state business.

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Re: COVID19

Post by DColeKC »

grovester wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:44 pm
And if you don't think Jared Kushner wasn't hijacking PPE for personal or political gain, you're naive.

The full weight of the US federal government could have acquired/manufactured what we needed. They chose not to.

Between the botched initial CDC test and this https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-is- ... ays-report

The US lost the opportunity to squash this.
I'll hold judgement on Kushner hijacking PPE to his own gain until there's some kind of proof of that very big accusation.

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