Building a rowhouse

New to downtown life? Have questions? Urban living expert, come share your thoughts.
CrossroadsUrbanApts
Parking Garage
Parking Garage
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:16 pm

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by CrossroadsUrbanApts »

Thanks again for all the great feedback. Two other questions that I'm working through:

On a typical townhome, the master bedroom and secondary bedrooms are on the top floor. For a typical-sized townhome (~1,700-1,800 SF, ~22 feet wide), you generally see configurations with 2 bedrooms or 3 bedrooms on the top floor. With a two-bedroom layout, you get a good-sized master bedroom and a nice-sized second bedroom. In a three-bedroom layout, you typically see a decent-sized master bedroom (with en-suite bathroom) and two very small secondary bedrooms sharing a hall bath. Think kid-sized bedrooms.

For a market like downtown KCMO/Columbus Park, do you think a 2-bedroom or 3-bedroom plan for the top floor would be more desirable? Assume you can carve out a small additional space on the ground floor next to the garage, for a ground floor office or workout room or similar. Typically this room is quite small, so hard to count as a full bedroom, especially if no bathroom on ground floor.

For families with children, there is a big advantage to the 3-bedroom top floor scenario. But I could see a childless couple preferring two larger bedrooms on the top floor. What do you think?

Last question, a lot of people chimed in on the desirability of outdoor space. Totally agreed. If you could have an outdoor deck, would you prefer it located off the top floor (say, accessed through the master bedroom), or accessed off the kitchen/dining level? The latter seems more usable to me but obviously wouldn't have the greater view possibilities of an outdoor deck off the top floor.

User avatar
normalthings
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4244
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by normalthings »

CrossroadsUrbanApts wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:51 pm
Thanks again for all the great feedback. Two other questions that I'm working through:

On a typical townhome, the master bedroom and secondary bedrooms are on the top floor. For a typical-sized townhome (~1,700-1,800 SF, ~22 feet wide), you generally see configurations with 2 bedrooms or 3 bedrooms on the top floor. With a two-bedroom layout, you get a good-sized master bedroom and a nice-sized second bedroom. In a three-bedroom layout, you typically see a decent-sized master bedroom (with en-suite bathroom) and two very small secondary bedrooms sharing a hall bath. Think kid-sized bedrooms.

For a market like downtown KCMO/Columbus Park, do you think a 2-bedroom or 3-bedroom plan for the top floor would be more desirable? Assume you can carve out a small additional space on the ground floor next to the garage, for a ground floor office or workout room or similar. Typically this room is quite small, so hard to count as a full bedroom, especially if no bathroom on ground floor.

For families with children, there is a big advantage to the 3-bedroom top floor scenario. But I could see a childless couple preferring two larger bedrooms on the top floor. What do you think?

Last question, a lot of people chimed in on the desirability of outdoor space. Totally agreed. If you could have an outdoor deck, would you prefer it located off the top floor (say, accessed through the master bedroom), or accessed off the kitchen/dining level? The latter seems more usable to me but obviously wouldn't have the greater view possibilities of an outdoor deck off the top floor.
I'd prefer 1 good sized master bedroom and 1 good-sized outdoor space. The second choice would be 2 bedrooms. A family of 4 is most likely going to have to move at some point so it doesn't make sense to me to cater to them.

User avatar
smh
Supporter
Posts: 3615
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 pm
Location: Central Loop

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by smh »

How small of bedrooms are we talking? I think people living in an urban context have more patience for small secondary bedrooms.

User avatar
FangKC
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 15089
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:02 pm
Location: Old Northeast -- Indian Mound

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by FangKC »

Outdoor space on the ground floor allows people to entertain in the summer more easily. Think about cooking/food preparation. If you have people over to eat and drink, you don't want to be hauling food up from the kitchen to a upper deck.

The other thing is that many people don't want people walking through their bedroom to get to an outdoor space.

User avatar
wahoowa
New York Life
New York Life
Posts: 395
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 2:57 pm
Location: CBD

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by wahoowa »

i lean two larger bedrooms vs three smaller ones, especially if there's some kind of extra space on a different level. i'm not sure a token third bedroom gives you more in the form of appeal to multiple kid families than it takes away in the form of wasted space for extra ingress/egress/drywall.

outdoor space off same level as kitchen is generally more useful but if there's a good reason to bump it to the second story (either good view or awkward/ugly first story option) then that's fine too.

User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 30594
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by KCPowercat »

Yeah I'd say 2 on top and for sure main level deck access over main bedroom.

User avatar
taxi
Valencia Place
Valencia Place
Posts: 1789
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:32 am
Location: North End
Contact:

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by taxi »

smh wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:17 pm
I like the layout of the Gallerie townhomes for the most part. I would contrast that to the two townhomes on Wyandotte in River Market that seem very wonky in their layout.

Wonky being a scientific term of course.

Depending on the site, I'd value a usable front porch.
A lot of talk about a front porch, but consider this: those 2 townhouses on Wyandotte at 4th both have usable front porches that never get used. They also have nice, usable front and back balconies that rarely get used. They have rooftop decks that get used a ton. Would love to hear some thoughts on this to assess another project.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/401+W ... 94.5853666
Are they too close to the street? Too isolated (no other row houses nearby)? Not private enough?

User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 30594
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by KCPowercat »

Those will be greatly improved when/if the others are added but even more importantly if that parking lot can be updated. I still was keeping my eye on the bigger one if it ever went up for sale due to the location and potential of improvement around it.

I don't think a front porch has to be sat on a great deal for it to be an amenity people would like to have.

User avatar
grovester
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4168
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:30 pm
Location: KC Metro

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by grovester »

Porches aren't big enough, I'd extend them out underneath the upper deck.

flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8921
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by flyingember »

taxi wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:08 pm
smh wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:17 pm
I like the layout of the Gallerie townhomes for the most part. I would contrast that to the two townhomes on Wyandotte in River Market that seem very wonky in their layout.

Wonky being a scientific term of course.

Depending on the site, I'd value a usable front porch.
A lot of talk about a front porch, but consider this: those 2 townhouses on Wyandotte at 4th both have usable front porches that never get used. They also have nice, usable front and back balconies that rarely get used. They have rooftop decks that get used a ton. Would love to hear some thoughts on this to assess another project.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/401+W ... 94.5853666
Are they too close to the street? Too isolated (no other row houses nearby)? Not private enough?
two homes out of 100,000 is not a statistic.

User avatar
wahoowa
New York Life
New York Life
Posts: 395
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 2:57 pm
Location: CBD

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by wahoowa »

i think use of outdoor space is all very context dependent. for one, rooftop spaces tend to be larger and have more usable space where your surroundings are out of your sightlines. if your ground floor or mid floor options are porches or decks looking out at a parking lot, you're going to prefer the roof even if it takes some extra steps to get there from the kitchen or wherever.

agreed that a primary feature of a front porch could easily be weather protection when you're getting in or going out. you don't need to be seen "using" it to find it useful. the same is true of a back deck off a kitchen. if it holds a gas grill it can still be valuable to a buyer even if it isn't where you hang out outdoors.

the residents' use of those particular units are probably affected by the fact that they exist in a large sea of cars and not much else, both (obviously) behind and to the sides in the parking lot but also with street parking out front and more parking lots and garages across the street.

User avatar
taxi
Valencia Place
Valencia Place
Posts: 1789
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:32 am
Location: North End
Contact:

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by taxi »

wahoowa wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:14 pm
the residents' use of those particular units are probably affected by the fact that they exist in a large sea of cars and not much else, both (obviously) behind and to the sides in the parking lot but also with street parking out front and more parking lots and garages across the street.
Thanks, that's kind of what I thought.

flyingembryo, thanks for the erroneous and non-constructive comment. 2 of 100,000 is, by definition, a statistic. Please do not feel the need to reply.

User avatar
smh
Supporter
Posts: 3615
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 pm
Location: Central Loop

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by smh »

taxi wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:08 pm
smh wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:17 pm
I like the layout of the Gallerie townhomes for the most part. I would contrast that to the two townhomes on Wyandotte in River Market that seem very wonky in their layout.

Wonky being a scientific term of course.

Depending on the site, I'd value a usable front porch.
A lot of talk about a front porch, but consider this: those 2 townhouses on Wyandotte at 4th both have usable front porches that never get used. They also have nice, usable front and back balconies that rarely get used. They have rooftop decks that get used a ton. Would love to hear some thoughts on this to assess another project.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/401+W ... 94.5853666
Are they too close to the street? Too isolated (no other row houses nearby)? Not private enough?
I suppose the one has a porch, the other is more of just a stoop. I might suggest two reasons the one front porch doesn't get used. First is that there isn't really a "neighborhood" vibe on that block, meaning one reason you sit on the porch is to chat with nearby neighbors and there really aren't any on that block. Second, the porch is not on the same level as the kitchen--I don't know the alchemy of it but I think there's something to a porch being near the main activity node of the house that helps with usage. But I could be mistaken on that last point.

CrossroadsUrbanApts
Parking Garage
Parking Garage
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:16 pm

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by CrossroadsUrbanApts »

The Gallerie townhomes that smh brings up are a good example of what I was thinking - the end units have three bedrooms up top (and are slightly larger overall) and the middle units have two bedrooms up top. I think end units are about 1,800 SF and middle houses about 1,670 SF.

As a parent with elementary age children, I really like the units with 3BR up top. But this is likely a case where I am overly putting myself in the shoes of the end buyer. :)

User avatar
normalthings
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4244
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by normalthings »

I would love if we could get something other than grey when it comes to exterior colors.

flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8921
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by flyingember »

taxi wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:24 pm
wahoowa wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:14 pm
the residents' use of those particular units are probably affected by the fact that they exist in a large sea of cars and not much else, both (obviously) behind and to the sides in the parking lot but also with street parking out front and more parking lots and garages across the street.
Thanks, that's kind of what I thought.

flyingembryo, thanks for the erroneous and non-constructive comment. 2 of 100,000 is, by definition, a statistic. Please do not feel the need to reply.
I'll quote a random definition of what a statistic is
"a fact or piece of data from a study of a large quantity of numerical data."

If you're going to personal attack, do you homework first. you just look silly being wrong

flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8921
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by flyingember »

normalthings wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:03 pm
I would love if we could get something other than grey when it comes to exterior colors.
They will be, give it 3-5 years and the next hot color that sells homes is what they'll be painted.

User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 30594
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by KCPowercat »

CrossroadsUrbanApts wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:51 pm
The Gallerie townhomes that smh brings up are a good example of what I was thinking - the end units have three bedrooms up top (and are slightly larger overall) and the middle units have two bedrooms up top. I think end units are about 1,800 SF and middle houses about 1,670 SF.

As a parent with elementary age children, I really like the units with 3BR up top. But this is likely a case where I am overly putting myself in the shoes of the end buyer. :)
I think that's a good idea to be able to have both.

User avatar
FangKC
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 15089
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:02 pm
Location: Old Northeast -- Indian Mound

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by FangKC »

Using a porch is certainly conditional on how pleasant it is to be on it. If your primary view is a parking lot of cars across the street, you aren't going to enjoy being on it. The other thing I'd say is any porch that can't seat two people comfortably will probably not get used.

Post Reply